If Phoenix was playing like they were last year and Stockton and Malone were still in Utah, this team would probably be in the same place they were last year - on the outside looking in. But most definitely, had Phoenix and Utah started rebuilding last year, the Rockets would have probably been the 7th seed last year.
Juugie, if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. we have no idea what would've happened if phoenix & utah did this that or the other. no idea whatsoever. if if if.
I look at this board and I see silliness like Ridnour, Heinrich, Eric Snow. Most of these guys are average player who have shown nothing. Show me the threads where people are saying to trade Franicis straight up for one of those guys. Personally, I haven't seen them. I've seen plenty of ideas where we get those guys and a Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis or Tyson Chandler. That's a pretty significant difference. I'll take the addition of Lewis or Allen and sacrafice a couple of rebounds by my PG. Steve Francis on the other hand has proven he can lead a team. How has Francis lead the team? By taking the most shots? By dominating the ball? By doing more commercials? Kind of funny that JVG's primary complaints against the Rockets was that the players didn't play hard and didn't play smart. Maybe it's time to get a new leader. There are little things people neglect. Little nuances that people miss. People see Franchise turn the ball over or shoot 39 percent. But let's look at Ridnour, Snow, Barry, Heinrich. Heinrich shoots 39 percent, struggles with full court pressure, and is an unpoven player in this league. Ridnour is nobody and shoots 40 percent. Snow can't shoot, average speed and cannot create his own shot. Barry averages 11 points a game. Doesn't have the explosiveness of Francis, and gets 3 rebounds a game as opposed to Francis' 6. So, you're making the argument that these guys numbers are comparable to Francis? Hmm..similar numbers, fewer turnovers, better outside shot and all for 25% of the money Francis makes? Ok, now throw Rashard Lewis into the deal and it sounds pretty good to me. It's all desire and the willing to sacrifice for the team. None of these guys aforementioned has that heart and sacrifice. I'd have to say that JVG would disagree with your assessment, here's a quote of his from the Chronicle Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy went beyond membership in the Kirk Hinrich fan club and all the way to club president. "I love Kirk Hinrich ," Van Gundy said of the Bulls rookie point guard. "I haven't seen him enough, but I've seen enough to say he's going to be a great point guard in this league. I watch him, he's more athletic than you think. He does not back down. He's a big-time competitor. "When I watch Hinrich , in my limited watching of the Bulls, it's not a stretch to think he'll be a star point guard in this league, as much to do with his competitive spirit and toughness as for any particular skill. I see a guy who is a very, very, very strong competitor." Just Look at vince Carter or Penny and their lack of desire. Unlike these players Francis is a special player that should be given a chance to play. Apparently, I missed the threads suggesting that we trade Francis for Carter or Hardaway. What do they have to do with trading Francis? Players don't just get traded because they don't have ability. Francis' game doesn't complement Yao's game. If you pack the defense in to stop Yao, you also stop Francis. That's a problem. Francis is making $11M/year and with Yao here, that money could be better spent on other players that fit better. That's not neccessarily Francis' fault. The whole direction of the team changed when we drafted Yao. But, like it or not, things have changed and in our current system Francis at $11M/year isn't a good value.
he's against any trade involving his boy stevie..... BTW, i love the Steve and filler for Barry + Rashard idea. that would be sweet. porve....... PORVE!!!!!
Misunderstanding Stevie Franchise http://hoopdynasty.com/HR.htm Does this picture mean something to you? Well if you saw the Phoenix-Houston game, in which Phoenix won 99-97 in OT. This picture means a lot to the Rockets. After Amare Stoudemire does a thunderous dunk in Yao Ming's face, Francis gets mad and didn't like how he abused Yao and stiff armed Amare, then later in the game Kelvin Cato came to protect Francis, and yet again Amare slammed it over Yao, while Yao Ming got his revenge on Amare. For all the doubters of Steve Francis, saying he is not a true point guard, and can't understand that Yao is the team, and according to Kevin Garnett, Francis is the team.If Francis averaged 6 or more assists each season along with at least 5 rebounds and 15 points, that is no joke. He has Grant Hill and Oscar Robertson in the same category. Do you think Francis hates Yao and can't stand to play with him? Look at Francis protect his teammate, and whenever Yao does something big like make a 3-point play with 45 sec in the Dallas game, Francis slaps his butt and screams,"Ahhhh!". Whenever Francis is on the bench and Yao is in the game, Francis is basically always standing up cheering him on. Infact, Yao told sources that he got all the touches last year he needed, infact it was too much. This year he feels like sometimes they overlook him, but that happens once in a while. On top of all that, we have quotes from Yao Ming," If it wasn't for Steve(Francis), I wouldn't have been at this step in my career, he always motivates me and inspires me. The media makes him look very bad, it is not fair."
I have a feeling if SF leave Rox, Yao will leave as well. Keep SF and move him to 2 is the key to keep Yao.... ?!??! Kick me if Im wrong
Exactly. Steve is playing mediocre basketball. If Yao was mediocre, this team would be where it was last year - out of the playoffs.
That is so well said. While I do think that some of the suggestions here are valid, I also think that we need to keep a team that can grow together, I'm not sure that getting Barry and Allen would pay enough dividends immediately. Ray Allen is injury prone, he is also undersized just like Mobley, and frequently gets torched, I remember him getting pushed around by Vince Carter in the playoffs, and totally dominated. The guy doesn't have toughness, I don't think that he would necessarily do anything for chemistry, and he also shoots in the low 40s, not a major improvement, and who said that Ray Allen doesn't make just as much money? As for Barry, the man is pushing 33, he is nice, but I can't see why we couldn't honestly acquire him for the mle or something like that Certainly not a player that I see being around long enough to help Ming who is clearly our center peice in the long run. Hinrich is a nice player, but I'm not so sure that he plays well without the ball in his hand either, and certainly his feild goal percentage is no better, though his outside shot is sweet. Besides these point, Chicago will not part with him. Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Micheal Redd, and Mike Bibby, also play more uptempo games. I am sure that Steve Francis would thrive more in their systems, we can't be sure that it's a good fit. Maybe I'm wrong on alot of this, but if Jeff Vangundy can see enough to keep it together, then why can't we be patient? This is the best team that we've had in a while, and they're all young. Certainly the youngest that is doing anything significant in the league. Stevie's shown us what he can do before, I think that we can give this team some time. After all, he's never had a big man like Yao Ming, and he has all the heart in the world. Just my two cents.
That is so well said. While I do think that some of the suggestions here are valid, I also think that we need to keep a team that can grow together, I'm not sure that getting Barry and Allen would pay enough dividends immediately. It's not just about growing together, it's much more fundemental than that. It's Francis' style of game that is the problem, it doesn't mesh well with Yao's. Unless, you believe that after 5 years Francis is going to become a consistent outside shooter, then we've got a problem. Ever since the defensive rules were changed, Francis' shooting percentage has gone down. That took away alot of his ability to get to the hoop. Now, factor in Yao consistently posting up and Francis has even fewer opportunities to penetrate. We need somebody that is going to consistently make the opponents pay for surrounding Yao with 2 and 3 defenders. Francis can't do that. Could we bring in another player instead of trading Francis? Sure, but we've got other holes that need to be filled. Trading Francis allows us to solve multiple problems. Additionally, if Francis' game is going to be adversly effected by Yao, then why pay him $11M, when we're not going to get a comparable output from him? Ray Allen is injury prone, he is also undersized just like Mobley, and frequently gets torched, I remember him getting pushed around by Vince Carter in the playoffs, and totally dominated. I'm not sure how toughness relates to getting torched. Nobody has been torched more than Francis and you still consider him tough. Also, just to be accurate, Ray Allen and Vince Carter have never met in the playoffs. Hinrich is a nice player, but I'm not so sure that he plays well without the ball in his hand either, and certainly his feild goal percentage is no better, though his outside shot is sweet Besides these point, Chicago will not part with him You're missing the point, we don't want Hinrich to play without the ball in his hands. We want him to handle the ball...he makes good decisions and has alot more assists than turnovers. He can lead a fast break and he's a good outside shooter. He's also a good defender. Hinrich is just a "nice player", yet Chicago wouldn't trade him for Francis? Does that mean that Francis is no better than a "nice player"? You don't pay guys that are just "nice players" max money. Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Micheal Redd, and Mike Bibby, also play more uptempo games. I am sure that Steve Francis would thrive more in their systems, we can't be sure that it's a good fit. Allen, Lewis and Redd are all good outside shooters. They'd still be good shooters, no matter what system they play in. If anything, they'd get alot more wide open looks in our offense than they currently do. The fact that those guys can hit the outside shot as well as run the floor would be an added bonus. Somehow, I doubt that a PG that can't lead a fastbreak would thrive in a running offense. Maybe I'm wrong on alot of this, but if Jeff Vangundy can see enough to keep it together, then why can't we be patient? The point is that we won't know until this summer if JVG does indeed plan to keep the team together. So, that cuts both ways. If Van Gundy decides that it won't work with Francis and Yao, then everybody also needs to be understanding of that. After all, he's never had a big man like Yao Ming, and he has all the heart in the world. Unfortunately, a big man like Yao hurts Francis game. The more that Yao has stepped up and become more of the centerpiece of the team, the more it has hurt Francis' game. No matter how much heart Francis has, he can't help a whole lot when teams sag in on Yao, he's just not a good shooter. You can hope that his shooting will improve, but the probability of that isn't too good. Certainly the youngest that is doing anything significant in the league Certainly...you are incorrect. Here's the average ages of NBA teams as of 11/4/03. Since this report, we've added two 40 year old to the roster to move us even farther down the list. 1. Cleveland .. 24.395 2. Utah ....... 25.184 3. Orlando .... 25.558 4. Memphis .... 25.739 5. LA Clippers 26.043 6. Phoenix .... 26.076 7. Washington . 26.187 8. Seattle .... 26.216 9. Denver ..... 26.284 10. Miami ...... 26.560 11. Milwaukee .. 26.580 12. Boston ..... 26.622 13. Indiana .... 26.692 14. Chicago .... 26.956 15. Atlanta .... 27.407 16. Portland ... 27.463 17. Dallas ..... 27.465 18. New Jersey . 27.840 19. Toronto .... 27.987 20. Houston .... 28.005 21. Philadelphia 28.039 22. Minnesota .. 28.265 23. San Antonio 28.338 24. New York ... 28.369 25. Golden State 28.576 26. Detroit .... 28.622 27. LA Lakers .. 28.802 28. Sacramento . 29.493 29. New Orleans 29.744
Great, Francis sticks up for his teamates. Let's keep a sub 40% shooting guard with one of the worst turnover to assist ratios a starting pg has in the league. Heck, why not keep him, and park him at the 3 point line, because <30% is a great 3 pt percentage. Why would we want to build around a guy who is 7'6" and shots almost 54%? That would only be the SMART thing to do, and lord knows, we should keep the guy that has been regressing ever since Yao got here. DD
aelliott's posts should make it crystal clear why Steve is not performing well, why it would be advisable to trade him, and what kind os player to trade him for. I find it difficult to believe that someone is reading his brilliant posts and still coming up with "Yeah, but I love him, let's give him another chance" Steve Francis will NEVER have a good asst/to ratio, and his midrange/longrange scoring will NEVER be worth the MAX. Those are 2 things that you have to look at very very very realistically at this point in his career, after 5 seasons. Steve is my favourite player on the Rockets right now, but my judgement tells me that it would be silly to keep him because there has been no evidence that he can adjust. There ha sbeen slight improvement, followed be a recent regression again. Meaning, the "improvement" was most likely an anomaly. You shoot 39% for the season, then there will be a 10 game stretch where you shot 42 or 43% at some point. That doesn't mean 43% is the norm.
I would like just one example of Steve Francis's leadership of this team. I am not trying to knock him but I can't think of one. Not trying to beat a dead horse, but the Super Bowl incident in my mind, showed why he will never be the leader of this team. Do you think those guys sitting on the plane waiting for him that day really look to him as their leader? If a player is the leader of the team, it is because the players look up to him for leadership not because fans think he is a leader. How do we know what he is like in the locker room and practice? We have no idea. Lead by example. The main problem with the NBA these days is that there are no leaders anymore. Shaq, Kobe, AI: all they do is b****. KG and Tim Duncan are the only ones I can think of. They let their hard play and dedication every single game speak for itself and that creates the leadership that these players lack. Again, please give me one example of Francis's leadership.
Steve is a great player. But his style is hinder for team to grow up from good to great. Were he able to hit the same FG percentage and play the same tuff D as Kobe, it's ok to let him play his way. However, he is not that great. His skill and style remind me a player, Bobbe Jackson, athletic, good D and also enjoy dribbling. He is used as 6th man, a complement to Kings' main stratigy. Think about it, which elite team would start SF3: Lakers ----- No Spurs ------ No Kings ------ No TWolves ------ Maybe Marves -------- No
noooooo!!! Now your getting into this trading fiasco!!!!!!1 This forum is finally doomed!!!!!!!!!!!!!
um i think the spurs would start francis over parker?? Call me a bad coach if u wish Plus gary payton is old, and francis could start also over payton, though sf would not start at this moment over cassell.
For a PG, he can't pass. For a SG, he can't shoot. Please, right now I would trade him for a pack of p*rn in a heartbeat.
he wouldn't start over parker. know why? two words: Greg Popovich. he doesn't deal with players that don't work hard on their game. he wouldn't start in LA either: i rather have a short tempered Payton with the ability to knock down jumpers than Francis. And i'm pretty sure Fisher can run the point a lot better than Francis. Case in point: the years he was their starting PG in LA when they won their championship
