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So is James Harden a PG forever?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by True Rocket, May 25, 2017.

?

Harden Point Guard for life?

  1. Yes

    52 vote(s)
    67.5%
  2. No

    25 vote(s)
    32.5%
  1. SemisolidSnake

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    Yes. He has to have the ball in his hands. I think from both a tactical standpoint but also a person standpoint for him. And it is remarkable how he suddenly put up more assists than anybody this year and still was scoring massive points per game. That's amazing. Keep him there. He'll either draw defenders away to set up assists, or he'll just score himself.

    However, I think he needs more tools in his toolbox for when the standard approach isn't working...such as in playoff games. And that's really a team effort. If everyone's still lined up behind the 3-pt line when no one's hitting threes and/or they're being guarded, his choices are limited to doing it himself or forcing the pass back to the arc anyway, likely leading to a turnover. The team needs to give him options, and that the means the team needs to develop multiple backup offenses.
     
  2. JonRetro

    JonRetro Contributing Member

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    I dont consider him a great passer like everyone else. Sure he has court vision but lets not confuse him with cp3 or magic johnson here. He avg 11ast but also close to 6turnovers as well. He does a great job of assist hunting which hurts the team.. never been a fan of Harden anyways so whatevs
     
  3. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Once again, let's clarify by saying that "making Harden the PG" functionally meant "he will pick up the ball in the backcourt whenever/as soon as possible"

    The results seem to speak for themselves as to whether or not this was a useful adjustment.
     
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    LOL - why is this unfortunate? "off the ball" players are not that hard to find compared to teh Hardens/Westbrooks/James of the universe.

    Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving have "shown" they can play off the ball. LeBron hasn't "shown" he can do it.

    It would be more fortunate, if LeBron could play off the ball, because....you read it in a fortune cookie? I don't get it.
     
  5. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    This doesn't really make sense. How can you expect the team to develop multiple backup offenses when you acknowledge that Harden has to have the ball in his hands?

    Either he's good enough to be the focal point of our offense or he's not. And based on what you're describing, he's not.
     
  6. rcketsfan1

    rcketsfan1 Member

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    Yeah it's a closed case. Third place in the western conference and an embarrassing loss to a crippled Spurs team in the second round! Lol!
     
  7. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    It kind of is - MVP(?), unanimous all-first team NBA, most points created in a single season, top 10 offense in the NBA....... in league history,

    What tweak do you have in mind that will improve this outcome?

    I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

    Let me guess - make the shots that got missed and BUTTERNOVERS
     
  8. PyroTex

    PyroTex Member

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    Yes. He did very good 1st year in a new role. We should be seeking another big, we have guards.
    He probably won't be leaving the Rox, so he will be PG.
     
  9. basketballholic

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    Looking at stats is so deceptive. You gotta watch the games. Last season was nothing but a Harden freak show. He maxed out his capacity and sucked this whole franchise into his vortex and we were done in the second round by a beat up Spurs team missing their franchise player and another franchise cornerstone.

    As my signature says we'll never win a championship with Harden as the point guard. We are too easy to defend. You can see it play out against the better teams and better defenses. And analysis of the numbers produced bears it out.

    Harden can make plays. And he can pass the ball. As a bigger playmaker he is pretty good in pick and roll and iso's..................as long as............and here's the key..............as long as he can get a favorable matchup, either directly or through screen switches.

    Where Harden falls woefully short as a point guard is when he can't get an inferior defender switched onto him so he can "work his magic".

    This is when he starts jacking pull-ups from distance that he's not good at, and he starts forcing the ball and his turnover count climbs.

    Then to compound the issue in the playoffs he simply isn't going to get all the calls he gets in the regular season. Those non-calls become turnovers and badly forced missed shots (almost the same thing as a turnover) and he unravels.

    Harden has been the point guard here for basically five years. He's been the point of attack. If bringing the ball up is what distinguishes a player as a point guard then I'll simply say Harden has been the point of the offense for five seasons now. You can talk about how he is so much freer to operate by bringing the ball up. But it's a gigantic zero. Sure his assists bumped up to 11. But his turnovers increased as well because the team essentially became even more Harden-centric than in any previous season. And as we've already seen in prior seasons, when we get into crunch time in a playoff series all those factors boil down to abject failure when it counts the most.

    Lebron plays with a point guard. And he fully shares point duties with Kyrie, split almost evenly at 50/50.

    Steph is a point guard. And he splits possessions with Livingston, moving to SG while Livingston runs the point, or Durant/Iggy run some possessions.

    Kawhi plays with a point guard and shares possessions with them. In fact Kawhi is for sure a secondary playmaker.

    James Harden needs a point guard to facilitate scoring opportunities for him. Why a point guard? Why not another position to facilitate and run offense? Why does it need to be a point guard instead of a small forward like Hayward/George or a playmaking big man?

    Here's why. Facilitating point guards are much easier and cheaper to acquire and pay. Because they are the more common player. It's much easier to find a guy that's 5'8" to 6'5" that can handle, shoot, pass, and defend smalls then it is to find a guy in the 6'6" to 7'4" range with those skills.

    We can get a point guard (Frank Mason) that can facilitate, pass, finish, and shoot from the 1 spot and then we've got all sorts of combinations we can run out, including a Mason, Bev/Gordon backcourt with Harden at the defensive SF. Harden can still run point when the matchup dictates it. And he can rub the point at the end of the first, second, and third quarters when we are in the bonus and our other point guard is on the bench.
     
    #29 basketballholic, May 26, 2017
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
    Cash Cam likes this.
  10. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Not until he increases his conditioning. He walks too much for a pg.
     
  11. basketballholic

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    When that offense bombs out in the second round because the opponent can overplay the shooters off the three-point line and force Harden to jack pull-up three balls and forced turnovers then it's time to change it and add another initiator/creator/distributor.
    Don't be stubbornly silly.
     
  12. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    PG ...... I think there is an 'I' somewhere in there.
     
  13. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    That would require Harden to move without the ball or at least dramatically improve his shooting.
     
  14. basketballholic

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    He is well capable at moving without the ball. He's a great cutter off the spot-up. Not to mention he's an over 40% spot-up shooter from 3 and needs to be taking more spot-up jumpers and far less pick-up jumpers. Harden is a great scorer. Him operating in defensive chaos after another playmaker has bent the defense out of shape would be one of the most efficient possessions we could have.
     
    #34 basketballholic, May 26, 2017
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  15. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    Where are you getting that number from?
     
  16. basketballholic

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    Let me rephrase slightly. Catch and shoot three balls. He's 39.5% (350/886) on them on nba.com tracking over last four seasons. He was over 40% until this last season.
     
  17. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    What filters are you using? And what was his catch and shoot 3pt% for this past season? It's the only relevant season to who he currently is.
     
  18. shadowsb23

    shadowsb23 Member

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    Don't worry guys, this will all be resolved in dantoni's new secret 'layers' of offense next season
     
    CapelaOnlyFan likes this.
  19. basketballholic

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    Figure it out dude.

    No last season isn't the only one relevant. Harden was overused last season. And that lowered his CAS percentage to a little above 38. But he's a forty+ perfected on CAS when he's fresh for his career.
     
  20. ballplayer

    ballplayer Contributing Member

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    Harden is a spot duty PG, not a full-time PG. PG play more critical in positionless basketball.
     

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