I won't dispute the above paragraph, because you missed my point. Your definition of "educated" involves diplomas granted by institutions of higher education. I have great respect for people who work toward these goals, but they have not cornered the market on "education". A man who owns a convenience store may not have an advanced degree, but his business and life experience can result in an education that is objectively as valuable as a person with a Doctorate in History (unless that person bangs p*rn stars and showers with co-eds). I wasn't taking dismissive swipes. An educated man knows better what the average Iraqi *needs*. Who cares what they want? I want to eat hamburgers and ice cream every day, but I need to limit my calories to avoid buying an entire new wardrobe. Democracy will not work at this time, that is why we will maintain a presence in Iraq for many years. We have to teach the Iraqis how to accept the responsibilities of self-determination. We have to open their society and let unlimited information flow freely. Once informed, they will make the proper choice- it is human nature to be free.
Yeah, it immediately came to mind when I was casting about for a new sig, just got a little bored with the old one, and this sort of summed up much of what I feel we are currently witnessing, sad to say. I am impressed that you remembered it; I thought I was the only dinosaur in here...
I can remember watching Howdy Doody as a child, and he was cancelled in about 1957, listening to the Friday night fights sponsored by Gillette, and seeing the presidential candidates on TV in 1956. I'm a post war baby, a child of the 1950s and 1960s. It was about 1966 I first read Southey's poem. Didn't really understand it then. Do now.
Aaahhh...I actually meant dinosaur in the anachronistic sense rather than the quintigenerian one, but any access to the classics will do. Myself I'm just entering my 30s, and while I have fond childhood memories of Leave It To Beaver, it must be confessed that they were re-runs. Perhaps Ozymandias might be more appropriate for us still, given where we're heading. The relationship we seem to want with Iraq might be best summed up in My Last Duchess... Okay, I'll stop now. Don't want to get yet another of those Clutch City BBS poetry debates going...
Since we are ferociously debating over the causes of the current Iraqi conflict, and there is no consensus or general opinion regarding the resolution, I don't see how that wonderful poem applies in any way.
You could only see relevance out of arrogance though, because you would have to dismiss opposing arguments due to their perceived ignorance.
john, there are great victories that don't really matter, and so far, this whole war is such a victory.
There might be an alternate explanation. I am not going to try and convince you that your position is wrong simply because I believe it to be, john, but neither do I expect you to dismiss my ability to remain convinced it is simply because it is not a unanimous opinion. There is more than one explanation for the causes and repercussions of The War of Spanish Succession, just as there were when Southey penned the poem, but that lack of unanimity didn't preclude him his opinion, nor me mine, nor did either require arrogance.
That is easy for you to say, sitting in the lap of luxury, and I couldn't disagree with you more. Our country conquered true Fascism and Communism, and we will purge radical Islamic fanaticism from this Earth. It will be an important victory to be sure, since Sharia law is an enemy of freedom, and Iraq gives us a base to fight that battle. btw, feel free to start a poetry thread elsewhere on this BBS. It is good stuff indeed.
The poem refers to Imperialistic warring that in no way resembles the current Iraqi conflict. The French wanted to conquer, while we want to teach self reliance. Our intentions, while self-serving, remain benevolent. Apples and oranges.......
Now which one of us is confusing our or one view with fact? Also, the War of Spanish Succession wasn't really about Imperialistic conquest at all...and the poem wasn't commenting on a particular type of warfare as opposed to any other. And benevolence and self-serving are mutually exclusive concepts.
lol, the War of Spanish Succession was not about imperialism?? Come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyway, I am going to sleep, secure in the fact that we could argue all night without resolution. Good night to you.
why haven't you joined the military? I never understand tough talking men who lack the courage to fight in wars they believe are necessary. WE didn't conquer fascism and communism. There were tyrants long before either ideology passed this way, and there will be tyrants long after they pass. Fascism is alive and well throughout the world, and so is communism. Communism is an embryonic form, a temporary bridge between feudal states and modern times. You have to see 20th century fascism and communism for what they were: way stations between monarchies and democracies. I am confident that China will evolve into a much more capitalistic form and a much more democratic form, but it is an evolution, not a conquering. Neo-cons love to fantasize that Reagan did something that brought down the wall, but he didn't. MTV brought it down. The American way of everything brought it down. We seduced, we didn't conquer. The nature of man does not change, merely what he perceives as normal. Men will build nations, build armies, and use them. This will lead to wars, and those wars will take place irrespective of the nature of the government. Democracy has certainly not been an impediment to military actions. No form of government will be. Wars are fought for tribal reasons, same as it ever was.
MacBeth, Maybe I am missing your point, but I can not believe that you are assuming that educated people lean to the left. I think more of what you do in life etc helps define your leanings. Most people lean one way or the other based on selfish reasons, it is all about what is best for you at that time. Being an educated man, and a part of senior management causes me to be fiscally conservative, but ....I am socially liberal on some main issues like abortion etc.... Personally, I think people that spend all their time in the protective world of education are not necessarily as well rounded as those that are participating in the give and take of a free society. Studying books etc can only teach you so much....for instance, I will bet you learned more than a little bit about sex from that p*rn star you were seeing....and I will bet she had a very well ROUNDED education. People in the ivory towers of the world have every bit as myopic viewpoint as those in the CEO positions, just lean a different direction because of self serving reasons. If you are working at a college your wages are controlled by the state, so of course you want the state to control more money, while those in the free market want the state to have less money...so it all boils down to selfish reasons.... UGh...what a ramble......I should really avoid hangovers. DD
The flip side of the above argument is "America, love it or leave it". You can argue better than this. Democracies with intertwined economies don't go to war. Your assertion is flat wrong.
you lost me here glynch....this is the same poll that was originally posted to start the thread. the article was from the wsj but it was not a wsj poll. it was a zogby poll. the same poll that you posted.
Because they are all too busy arguing about the nuances of understanding the grayness of an issue. DD
