Wow Robert Covington...

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by HRox832, Dec 6, 2014.

  1. Easy

    Easy Contributing Member

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    You can look at it in the macro way or in the micro way.

    My statement is about looking at it in a micro way. If you cut player A and keep player B, or if you trade A for B, and A ends up better than B,you lose. You can't say, "We were smart at seeing how good A was in the first place." If you were that smart, you wouldn't have giving him up for a lesser player.

    You are looking at it in a macro way. You don't think it really matters if we let go of better players in the short run as long as we end up a better team. That I agree to an extent. I understand the importance of maintaining certain amount of flexibility in order to jump on the opportunities of getting great players. I also understand the importance of accumulating assets in order to flip them for big fish.

    Look at the team 5 years ago, the first year after the Yao-McGrady era. These were the top rotation role players (assuming Martin as a "star" not role player)
    Ariza
    Brooks
    Scola
    Battier
    Lowry
    Landry
    Hayes
    Budinger

    This is where we are:
    Ariza
    Beverley
    Motiejunas
    (Smith) -- in parenthesis because he's just a free pick up
    Brewer
    Jones
    Terry
    Papanikolaou/Dorsey

    young Ariza < current Ariza
    Brooks = Beverley
    Scola = Motiejunas
    Battier > Brewer
    Battier < Smith
    Landry = Jones
    Lowry >> Terry
    Hayes > Dorsey
    Papanikolaou = Budinger

    I don't know about you. I'd say they are pretty much a wash. The old team may be better if we don't count Smith. We are better than 5 years ago not because we have better role players but because we have Harden and Howard vs Martin and Dorsey.

    So in the macro view, after 5 years of flipping, turning over the entire roster a few times (getting some old ones back in the process), we got two stars and a slightly worse supporting cast.

    I agree that we got Harden mainly because of the accumulation of assets. We got Howard mainly because (1) having Harden and (2) cap space flexibility. So the strategy worked in terms of getting stars.

    But the success is opportunistic. We got Harden because OKC did not value him enough. The trade was lopsided even before Harden exploded this season. More importantly, Morey might have undervalued Harden too. Morey probably would admit that he did not know whether Harden would be this good. In fact, up to the last offseason, Morey appeared to think that Harden was NOT good enough to lead us to a title. He thought we needed to get a third star before we could contend.

    Getting Howard is even more difficult to assess. If you compare the year before we got him and last season, we won more games in the regular season with Howard, but lost to a weaker opponent (compared to OKC) in the playoffs. This year, the team seems to do fine without Howard healthy. So it still remains to be seen exactly how much we have gained by signing Howard as opposed to using the cap space to build a better supporting cast for Harden.

    Was it necessary to keep flipping the role players, sometimes getting better, sometimes getting worse, in order to obtain the two stars? In other words, if we are less flip-happy could we have got stars? I have no answer to that. I don't know if anyone could answer that with absolute certainty.

    To me as a fan, the flipping definitely comes with a cost. I am asked to root for a different set of rotation players pretty much every year. There are good former players I love scattered all over the leagues. This takes a toll to my sense of team loyalty. I found myself more critical to the team in general even though they are winning more. I don't feel as proud of the team when they win as I used to. Maybe I am the only one. But I seem to have noticed that some old timers here behave the same way I do.
     
  2. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    You make a great point that does not change my original joy at being reaffirmed that our GM can find these guys. You're right though, I sure wish we still had one or both of Lowry and Dragic to team with Harden.
     
  3. RoxBeliever

    RoxBeliever Member

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    The only moves I would have re-done was letting Dragic go and then signing Lin for the same amount and (on hindsight) trading away Asik.

    At the moment with the kind of holes we had on our previous teams, Morey had to keep making changes. After the Yao-McGrady era, we couldn't get out of 9th place in the West. Now with Harden and Howard, we still haven't gotten out of the 1st round.

    We still need to keep finding good players. But we're getting closer. Now it's for specific needs at a specific amount. That's harder than just turning over the roster to find stars (whatever position they are).

    Don't give up on the process.
     
  4. split41

    split41 Member

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    He's been great since he's been given minutes (He's on both of my Fantasy teams)
     
  5. split41

    split41 Member

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    There's is less of "your a role player" vibe in philly, it's more of a "show us what you can do" vibe. He is under less pressure and has more confidence and has really come out. I think that's why we didn't see that in Houston.
     
  6. saleem

    saleem Contributing Member

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    I feel Canaan is under similar pressure, he needs to focus on defense first.
    His shooting form will be back soon, if he does that.
     
  7. hotballa

    hotballa Contributing Member

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    Its exactly the way i feel. The non stop tinkering is ridiculous. Players come and go, i understand that, and i will always root for the laundry but i feel so detached from the team since Scola was released. I understand the need to upgrade, but maybe if we let guys develop and play themselves into better players, that might be a better option. You dont wheel and deal yourself into a #1 team unless you are pat riley. Most of the championship teams are built from the bottom up. Do we even have one impact guy on our roster thatbwe drafted?
     
  8. WinkFan

    WinkFan Contributing Member

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    It seems rather pointless to respond item by item to all this rationalization so I will just ask this:

    What team with James Harden and role players is going to beat all the multiple allstar teams in the West?
     
  9. jbasket

    jbasket Contributing Member

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    “Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." You could say it was lucky, but people like Harden, that want to be an alpha dog, do come around on the trading block. Is Harden better than what people expected? Yes. However, has he been that player in the playoffs? No. While he was undervalued, he does have yet to perform as expected in the playoffs. I am optimistic.

    Les instructed Morey that he could not tank, and you are whining about Morey flipping assets until we get the best players at their respective positions?

    No, it would not have been possible to get those two. You really think that trading Brooks, Ariza, Landry, or others would have been enough to get Harden?

    We all loved the role players that were acquired to surround Tmac/Yao, but the fact of the matter is, the Rockets had to move on. As far as I am concerned, there is not a Hakeem in the league that will put the team on his back by himself, outplay multiple other HOF centers, and win back to back titles. If you see that player today, please let me know.

    OKC after losing Westbrook was not better than Portland. We didn't win in the playoff last year because of the choke jobs from many Rockets, and some bad refereeing. It's obviously noticeable that Howard's presence is missing, both offensively and defensively, when the Rockets struggle when Harden is doubled, and against big front courts. Jordan and Chandler had dunk shows against us. This is despite Smith playing lights out, falling into our laps at a grossly underpaid 2 million dollar salary. Once again, luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

    I think you have assumed Howard playing hurt is normal Howard.

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/stor...g-dwight-howard-defensive-player-year-chances
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...nba-defensive-player-of-the-year-award/page/6
    http://www.nba.com/2014/news/featur...ldridge-joins-mix/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6d
    http://www.nba.com/2014/news/featur...anthony-davis-leads-first-rankings/index.html

    Stop the revisionist history.

    If you could not tell that Scolandry/Martin/Ariza/anybody would not develop into a 1st option on a championship team and/or how that would not equate into a championship team...

    You do wheel and deal yourself into a #1 team, if it works. You don't think getting Harden/Howard is success? Keep in mind that Pat Riley, in Miami, was fortunate Wade/Lebron/Bosh wanted to team up. That was not of Riley's doing, and the reason Lebron left was because Riley could not keep a good supporting cast. He went to a better basketball situation, period. Look at the Heat right now: they signed Deng to try to replace some production, and lucked into Whiteside, who had played in China, and they are still barely in the playoff picture in the East. Quite frankly, Riley was unable to find/draft people on bargain salaries like Jones, Dmo, Beverley, Smith, and Canaan. The grass is not always greener on the other side.

    Yes, we do have impact guys that we drafted. I also think this should include undrafted FA and overseas players for an all-inclusive list of rookies and players that starting playing in the NBA for the Rockets their rookie year.

    Dmo
    Jones
    Canaan
    Beverley
    Dorsey
    Papanikolou

    That is nearly our entire supporting cast that have started with the Rockets as rookies or were drafted by the Rockets.
     
  10. zeeshan2

    zeeshan2 Member

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  11. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Contributing Member

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    This is some old thread you dug up.....
    Good for him. Always liked his shooting.
     
  12. BigMaloe

    BigMaloe Contributing Member

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    Yeah Nate Duncan has been saying for some time now it is a lock to happen.

    Props to him. Came in and really learned the 3nD mentality in our system. Really worked hard on his shot. Got it near elite that first year.

    That following 2 years, last year more noticeably, he really focused on defense at the expense of his shot. Became one of the better wing defenders in the league and an advanced stats standout defensively.

    I had the feeling that this year would be his best because he would be able to combine both the defense and his shot and become a valuable wing 3nD.

    He hasn't disappointed. Now he is is shooting 3s 50% at 7.5 attempts a game so far this early season, while playing solid to very good defense.

    I hope he gets something like 4/40-50 because he deserves it.
     
  13. Sidarma

    Sidarma Member

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    But but I remeber saying he has brittle glass legs and always getting injured ....
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. khanhdum

    khanhdum Member

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    good for him, Rockets gave him the blueprint to carve a niche in the league and he stuck with it and now going to get paid well because of it and his hard work.
     
  15. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    I'll take all 3 of those guys back in a second!! Troy Daniels would thrive in MDA's system, Covington is just a great player right now and Canaan would do better than Bobby Brown or Jackson.
     
  16. zeeshan2

    zeeshan2 Member

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  17. BigMaloe

    BigMaloe Contributing Member

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    Why is this confusing me? I'm lost..
     
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  18. malakas

    malakas Member

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    He will take more right now in exchange for giving a discount in the next years.
    The total amount should be the same, it's probably cap managment to keep a max slot for next year, and to accomodate Simmons' future max? contract.
     
  19. BigMaloe

    BigMaloe Contributing Member

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    So he's getting 15m the first year on a declining scale going forward?
     
  20. TheRealAllpro

    TheRealAllpro Member

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    It reads like they are going to pay him 15 mil this season.... can they do that?
     
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