And if you want to get really serious about it, you have to take into account points in the paint vs. points outside the paint (jumpers). Open shots vs. Contested shots. There is so much you can do with stats. But I agree, his FG% doesn't look that good overall, but when this guy is on, he is on. Oh and Shanna, Carlos Rogers does have range. [This message has been edited by BoyhoodDream (edited November 24, 1999).]
I would agree with Shanna. Walt Williams gives the Rockets the spacing they need for Anderson and Francis to slash. It also gives Hakeem and Bark some room to work. If you put Carlos Rodgers in that lineup then you take away the spacing and allow the defenses of other teams to collapse. And not only that, the second team would consist of three point shooters. So the perimeter would be clogged up.
If you keep a stat for 3pt%, why not keep one for 2pt%. Maybe the best way to look at it is too see how many shots from 2pt range Walt has taken. If he's taken 20 to Dream's 200, then the stats don't compare. But if they're closer to others on the team, then they do compare. Right now, from a shooting standpoint, I like Walt much more than Mobley. That guy drives me nuts. While he has been playing good lately, I just can't stand it when he gets the ball, holds it for 5 or 6 seconds, doing nothing, and then shoots. At least Barkley and Hakeem in the post up game are moving, and looking for a pass out. Mobley thinks he's hot whenever he touches the ball. Don't get me wrong, I love Carlos Rogers because he works his ass off, but how many easy ass layups does he miss a game? It seems at least 2. If he has range, he hasn't showed it much. As for Walt, I think he's fitting the role fine. He runs well with the team, has been shooting pretty good. I really don't think his defensive has been THAT bad. Sure it's not great, but he's not costing us any games. (About that missed dunk against the Kings, it's pretty hard to dunk when two guys are trying to throw you down.) I really don't want Rogers starting. Just like Cato, it's not smart to use that energy at the beginning of the game. It's smarter to use their energy as a spark off the bench. I really don't think he'd be as effective. ------------------ Is it any coincidence that we are the only team mentioned in the national anthem? I didn't think so!
Shanna: You bring up a valid point there. Still, I would feel more comfortable with a lineup suited better for the uptempo game. Steve Francis can handle the task of being the lone perimeter threat on the team. Most clubs only have one true threat in their starting lineup, anyways. The Champion Spurs don't have a single one (Mario Elie is NOT a pure shooter). I just think it would be more beneficial to us if we had Shandon or Carlos at the 3. That would lead to more easy baskets.
Clutch, what exactly is your point in the comparison? Of course Walt is going to have more assists and turnovers -- he plays outside and handles the ball. Of course Rogers is going to have more rebounds, blocks, free throws -- he plays inside. I already said Rogers is leading the team in shooting, thus the higher points. Neither play good one-on-one defense, so that's a moot point. The difference is that Walt will get burned by the drive and foul. Rogers' man generally is inside already and just hits shots left and right. They are both fairly one-dimensional in terms of their strengths (shooting, hustling). Replacing Walt with Rogers in the lineup just gives the defense a green light to clog the middle. Rogers has done a great job -- and he's a big part of the team. But that doesn't mean he's the best choice for the starting lineup. The point is that Walt is a guy who spreads the defense - we don't have any of those in the starting lineup... we already have them in the bench team, so why not bring in Rogers with that team where he can contribute more by giving an outside team an inside presence. Otherwise, your bench team includes way too many outside players (Mobley, Williams, Drew) and that just makes it easier to play defense against the Rockets...
Since when did this turn into a Walt v. Rogers thread? I know I added a little to it, but those of us who are defending Walt and comparing his stats to others on the team are just trying to show that he doesn't suck like many believe. However, I strongly believe that Rogers would not average those numbers on a 48 minute average. Like someone said before, he'd probably tire out. Plus, most of his points are garbage points, hustle points. That's something you can count on when you know you're only going to be in for a few minutes at a time. Starting and coming off the bench are two totally different things.
Shanna is right! Her arguments are dead on. I predict that next year the Rocks will draft a 3 who can shoot the three and play the D. ... and then Williams can go at the end of his contract
we got people in here saying carlos 1 dimension is hustling? hahaha!!! you guys do know that translates into numbers!!!
What difference does it make that Carlos Rogers plays the inside game and Walt Williams plays the outside game? We are going to take away from his stats solely because well, uh, of course he will get more blocks, he plays on the inside.., or we will defend Walt Williams' turnovers because, well uh, Walt plays on the outside and handles the ball more, so its ok.. No, the fact here is that they both play different styles, and through the 48 minute production statistics, Clutch has proved that Carlos Rogers' style of play is more beneficial to the team. The starting lineup is about putting your 5 players on the floor who have the best chemistry together. If the Rockets indeed want to fastbreak, what is the point of having Williams on the court? A 3-man fastbreak is much more effective than a 2-man fastbreak. Instead of looking slow and lethargic for the first 4 minutes of the game, how about we put the speed lineup on the court to start the game and get some more easy baskets to take pressure off the old guys. Once the dust settles, let them go to work. [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited November 24, 1999).]
There are some very good points in this thread, but Walt, Rogers--or Mack for that matter--all make very good bench players or mainstays on teams where they are the weak link. Compare them to all the teams in the league, an any of these 3 essentially qualify as one of the worst starting swing players in the league (in the bottom quarter for sure), this is unacceptable. To be a great team, we need a guy who has a better all around game as the starter. GS has three such available guys is you consider Anderson can slide to the three. We have to do something to upgrade our combined 2/3 positions, or we are just bying time until Steve gets even better and the old Big 2 are gone. However, barring trades, I would rather start Rogers because he is younger and he helps out on our more pressing concern--having a more smothering defense. Plus, based on the performance so far, a little shaking of things up in the starting line-up is a good gamble. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited November 24, 1999).]
I've said before that Carlos should start and nothing has changed my reasons why.He is a much better defender than people give him credit for,with surprising lateral movement for a guy his size.His shot blocking ability is above average.He has one on one moves that are incredible for someone his size. Sometimes it appears that he has a hard time finishing his touch shots but this is because of lack of body control.He needs to get a little stronger.Carlos has the ability to shoot,contrary to some's beliefs.So much talent seems to be given this guy and he has such a laizze faire attitude about it.................Cast my vote for the old Robert Horry ........Carlos Rogers HH
Clutch I must admit you are good at manipulating numbers. Shanna is right about comparing Walt's outside stats with inside states for Los. Shanna I agree with your perception of the need for a true outside threat. I do not understand why so many others seem to miss your point. Why cut down your offensive options? Also, if the game was on the line, I'd rather see Walt take the last shot than Los. Freak Some of Walt's 3pt. shots come with the shot clock winding down. Some come by offensive design. They should't be considered poor shot selection. Cabbage The Spurs had Sean Eliot on the Championship Team. Even though Mario isn't a pure shooter, we know he can win a game from the three point line.
Rogerss, Williams, blah, blah, blah. My point in typing this thread is to we look into trading Walt, and if so what are we looking for? A two guard and make Anderson the 3. A 3 and simply and directly replace Walt.
Some points to make... 1. Walt's D is no where near as effective as Rogers. What games are you watching??? 2. Carlos does not continuously clog the lane. As compared to Walt's standing around in one spot, allowing for defenders to play passing lanes, Carlos has movement on offense. He creates second shots by actually grabbing offensive boards. He cuts to the hoop. He makes put backs. 3. Since we are all going to macro analize the stats and the perception of 2 pters and such, Ill add this. Walt is the beneficiary of getting the easiest shots on the team. Short of a dunk or layup, set shots (basically regarless of how far they are out) where his man is doubling down low should mean money in the bank.
What bothers me the most about walt is the inability to get the ball into the post to Dream.Clyde and Horry we're good at that and I think that is alot of Dreams problems.I know we want to run,but we do have to set up the 1/2 court offense some,and I feel we could cut down a lot of turnovers by having someone who could get it in there and shoot the ball. ------------------ Rockets For Better, For Worse......'til death do us part! [This message has been edited by wattsupdogg (edited November 24, 1999).]
Clutch, I dislike arguing details and not the main point, but I will make an exception for you . Carlos is going to be a good all-round player, but your statistical comparison was a little off. He scores more than Walt and shoots less. Shoots a better percentage. He stays in the game, blocks more, steals more, commits less turnovers and gets to the line much more (again, in less attempts). The difference in points are almost entirely due to the FTs, not shooting (Walt's 3s make up for the difference in %age). It is very likely that Carlos draws more fouls because Walt has often been in foul trouble quickly (which also proabbly hurts his %age). The 3.16-to-3.49 variance in tunrovers and the 1.2-1.16 variance in steals are probably not even been statistically valid. (calculation?...anyone?...anyone?) ...but Rogers in the first 13 games has done a brilliant job. Yuh huh! What a steal (an aside for Rudy bashers: if he sucks, how is it that no other coach had discovered the hidden gems Cato and Carlos?)
Good point FinalFantasy8, nobody here wants to talk trade they just want to compare him to Carlos. ZZZZZZ....... So I'm creatin a new thread on the subject and I hope you fellers, will respond.
