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Who is likely the most morally grounded President?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by ROXRAN, Jan 3, 2013.

  1. Classic

    Classic Member

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  2. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Contributing Member

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    Morally grounded?!?!? Are you freaking serious????

    Try all none of them.
     
  3. Nook

    Nook Member

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    You are insane.....

    "I do not recall"

    "Trees cause more pollution than cars do"

    "How that information is used must be up to schools and parents, not government. But let's be honest with ourselves, AIDS information can not be what some call 'value neutral.' After all, when it comes to preventing AIDS, don't medicine and morality teach the same lessons."

    Yup..... his morals and credibility were beyond reproach.
     
  4. Classic

    Classic Member

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    LOL, no kidding. Thanks to Reagan, the cold war ended in Russia but it began at home.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. da_juice

    da_juice Member

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    I don't feel as strongly as you do, but I agree. I never understood the Kennedy hype, and always thought Nixon was overcriticized.
     
  6. bobrek

    bobrek Not a liberal, regardless of my posts
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    replace 'overrated scandal' with 'unnecessary tactic'. :)
     
  7. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    I agree with you that Nixon got something of a raw deal historically and as the moderate who Deckard has tangled with about JFK I firmly believe that if JFK had lived he would go down as a mediocre President. Nixon though isn't one of our best presidents and certainly not the greatest post war presidents.

    Nixon did do some great things regarding the opening to China and some big legislative accomplishments. Just a note for current Republicans domestically he would be considered a liberal by today's standards. The problem though with Nixon was that at his heart he was venal, paranoid, whose over arching interest was power. That mean that while he governed pragmatically there was no real sense of how he wanted to change the country for the better, the vision thing.

    Compare him to LBJ who was probably even more Machiavellan and just as paranoid and loved power as Nixon but LBJ had a vision about how he wanted to change the country for the better and was willing to put that power to that use when it came to Civil Rights and the Great Society. Both LBJ and Nixon ended up being doomed but LBJ's downfall was due to his determination to seek out a victory in Vietnam even when he realized one was possible, while Nixon's downfall was because of his attempts to maintain power.
     
  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    The problem with Watergate wasn't the initial robbery but the cover up and the lengths that Nixon went to try to protect himself.
     
  9. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

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    There is so much wrong with this short post, I almost don't know where to start. But start I will. Let's talk Watergate for you youngsters who were not around when it was going down.

    Watergate was more than a third rate burglary. It came to be the shorthand way of referring to all of the crimes uncovered in the investigations. To wit:

    In 1970, Nixon approved the top-secret Huston Plan, authorizing the CIA, the FBI and military intelligence units to intensify electronic surveillance of individuals identified as “domestic security threats.” The plan called for, among other things, intercepting mail and lifting restrictions on “surreptitious entry” — that is, break-ins or “black bag jobs.” Thomas Charles Huston, the White House aide who devised the plan, informed Nixon that it was illegal, but the president approved it regardless.

    When told of a possible file that related to LBJ's handling of Vietnam, Nixon wanted it to blackmail LBJ. Only problem is, it was in the Brookings Institute. On tape, Nixon says: "Implement it. . . . I mean, I want it implemented on a thievery basis. God damn it, get in and get those files. Blow the safe and get it.”

    Nixon's men (Howard Hunt and G. Gordon Liddy) broke into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist to steal files. Ellsberg was the guy who provided the Pentagon Papers and Nixon was looking for a way to discredit him. On tape, Nixon says to Bob Haldeman: “You can’t let the Jew steal that stuff and get away with it. You understand? ... People don’t trust these Eastern establishment people. He’s Harvard. He’s a Jew. You know, and he’s an arrogant intellectual.”

    Nixon's Attorney General John Mitchell approved a plan that would gather intel on Democrats through illegal wiretapping and burglary.

    Nixon plotted to have Secret Service personnel get dirt on Ted Kennedy, saying: “We just might get lucky and catch this son of a bitch and ruin him for ’76.”

    Nixon ordered Ehrlichman to direct the Internal Revenue Service to investigate the tax returns of all the likely Democratic presidential candidates, as well as Kennedy.

    Nixon ordered the IRS to audit the tax returns of Larry O'Brien, head of the Democratic National Committee.

    Nixon had documents fabricated that implicated John Kennedy in the assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.

    When the Watergate break-in did happen, Nixon tried to get the CIA to tell the FBI to stop the investigation because of "National Security concerns." (The Smoking Gun Tape)

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_oe3OgU8W0s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Nixon overtly planned to subvert justice by paying off the burglars not to talk, saying: “They have to be paid. That’s all there is to that.” Later, in talking to John Dean, Nixon says:

    “How much money do you need?” ... “I, I know where it could be gotten. I mean, it’s not easy, but it could be done.”

    Nixon and Dean discussed a secret $350,000 stash of cash kept in the White House, the possibility of using priests to help hide payments to the burglars, “washing” the money though Las Vegas or New York bookmakers, and empaneling a new grand jury so everyone could plead the Fifth Amendment or claim memory failure. Finally, they decided to send Mitchell on an emergency fundraising mission. On tape Nixon says: “You handled it just right. You contained it. Now after the election, we’ve got to have another plan.”

    Nixon proposed to Alexander Haig and Fred Buzhardt that they manufacture evidence—a missing dictabelt tape—wanted by Judge John Sirica.

    And really, that's just the tip of the spear. Saturday Night Massacre, Muskie letters, and many other acts of bribery, intimidation, obstruction of Justice, destruction of evidence, and other acts of malfeasance. Not to mention just plain old boorish behavior.

    The Watergate scandal resulted in 69 government officials being charged and 48 being found guilty. The major names:

    John N. Mitchell, Attorney General of the United States, convicted of perjury.

    Richard Kleindienst, Attorney General, convicted of "refusing to answer questions" given one month in jail.

    Jeb Stuart Magruder, Head of Committee to Re-elect the President, pled guilty to 1 count of conspiracy, August 1973

    Frederick C. LaRue, Advisor to John Mitchell, convicted of obstruction of justice.

    H. R. Haldeman, Chief of Staff for Nixon, convicted of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and perjury.

    John Ehrlichman, Counsel to Nixon, convicted of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and perjury.

    Egil Krogh, aide to John Ehrlichman, sentenced to six months.

    John W. Dean III, counsel to Nixon, convicted of obstruction of justice.

    Dwight L. Chapin, deputy assistant to Nixon, convicted of perjury.

    Herbert W. Kalmbach, personal attorney to Nixon, convicted of illegal campaigning.

    Charles W. Colson, special counsel to Nixon, convicted of obstruction of justice.

    Herbert L. Porter, aide to the Committee to Re-elect the President. Convicted of perjury.

    G. Gordon Liddy, Special Investigations Group, convicted of burglary.

    E. Howard Hunt, Security consultant, convicted of burglary.

    James W. McCord Jr., convicted of six charges of burglary, conspiracy and wiretapping.

    The Nixon White House was a toxic stew of government corruption, ambition at the expense of the country, and intentional illegalities usually implemented by lawyers in positions of public trust. It was not just dirty tricks or "shady electoral tactics." It was the corruption of the Federal government to act not on behalf of the country, but for one man and his group of sycophants. A criminal melding of campaign and government. A wanton disregard for the law and the people.

    Oh, and while we're on the topic of morality, watch all of this:

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/D_K9Wi-g3Rk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
    4 people like this.
  10. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Contributing Member
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    I wish people would stop calling Carter a bad president. His chief accomplishment far outstrips the hostage crisis, the gasoline lines, and the events leading up to his famously ridiculed 'malaise' speech. (Thanks, Pat Caddell.)

    Carter brokered a peace between Israel and Egypt that continues to serve us and them incredibly well and that was instrumental in the resolution of the latest Israeli/Palestinian crisis. Of all the presidents we have ever had, Carter was the one and only to broker a meaningful peace between blood enemies in the Middle East.
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Exactly. Please don't act like Watergate was only something minor. It wasn't something that all Presidents did, or both sides did. It was something incredibly horrendous that should never happen again.
     
  12. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Add to that, he was ahead of the game when it came to conservation of energy, and his military rescue attempt of the hostages is often forgotten. Carter also did the right thing regarding the Panama Canal, and improved our standing with many Latin American nations as a result.
     
  13. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

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    There were tremendous crimes before the break-in. While Nixon was caught on the Smoking Gun tape implementing the coverup of the break-in, the idea that the coverup was worse than the crimes he was already engaged in is simplistic at best.
     
  14. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    You bring up a good point and thanks for refreshing my memory. I was alive when Watergate happened but think my main concern at the time was getting my diaper changed rather than presidential malfeasance.

    That said taking Nixon's presidency as a whole he did do a lot of great things and I don't think he should go down as the worst or one of the worst Presidencies.
     
  15. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

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    Pretty much, if you are truly morally grounded, you should not be TPOUS, or you would not be a good president.
     
  16. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Absolutely, it was an unnecessary tactic. At the time this was all going down, the break in, the effort by now famous low level Washington Post reporters to uncover the truth, the coverup, the facts of which dribbled out bit by bit, the sheer rediculousness of ever doing any of this out of fear of being beaten in the '72 election, when Nixon had a huge lead in pretty much every poll that mattered... people simply didn't believe it. I can't tell you how many discussions and arguments I had with people leading up to the election about this. My own father, who usually voted Democratic, didn't believe it and voted for Nixon. We argued about Watergate all the way up to the voting booths (there were actual voting booths then, which seem to be out of fashion today. I miss them). He later admited that he was wrong about Nixon and apologized, which astonished me. I can't recall another instance when Dad did anything remotely like his apology about Nixon.

    People simply did not believe Nixon could be that STUPID. Rimrocker does an excellent job of laying out a lot of the facts, but much of what he posted came out after November of '72, or came out earlier, but again, was simply not believed by a very large majority of the American public. Those that look back at this dark period of American political history without having lived through it just have no idea what a huge deal this was, and the ramifications that came from it, in some ways still felt today.
     
    #36 Deckard, Jan 4, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  17. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    There appears to be a real lack of knowledge regarding the depth of the Watergate scandal.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Rh3bgPJ4dBs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  18. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

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    Yes, China, EPA, and other things. Great things. Don't forget that the only reason Nixon cold go to China was because the wingnuts of the era wouldn't eviscerate him and call him a Commie like they would any Democratic president. And his legislative achievements were just that. Legislative achievements passed by a Democratic Congress with popular support.

    He is still one of if not the worst president ever. Corrupt, racist, and only concerned about himself and his grudges.

    Here's a taste of Nixon:

     
  19. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

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    Oh, and rj, don't forget about this great thing Nixon did:

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RmHTte8jRLk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  20. weslinder

    weslinder Contributing Member

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    Probably James Garfield. Practicing minister, abolitionist, believed strongly in equal rights before it was popular, and restored a lot of integrity to the Presidency.
     
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