Which (non)Events Had the Greatest Impact on Rocket History?

AntiSonic · May 27, 2008

Great thread!

*Not trading Brent Price for Derek Harper in '96 - Stockton doesn't go off and we play the Bulls in the Finals
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This one really, really hurts. IIRC, the Rockets declined a last second offer for Harper and Price immediately blew out his knee.

*The Damon Stoudamire trade - the big 3 was on it's last legs. Could Stoudamire have gotten them over the top?
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This one doesn't hurt anywhere near as much. I know it's easy to evaluate it from vantage point of ten years in the future, but the Rockets were really giving up too much. IIRC, the deal was Elie, Willis, and Rodrick Rhodes for Stoudamire and Walt Williams. We would have had arguably the most talented starting five that year, but the bench would have been practically empty save for Eddie Johnson.

A twist on this one: what if Toronto's GM hadn't leaked the details to get better offers? The trade going public was the catalyst in Mario Elie's decision to go to the Spurs. Would Elie's presence on the '99 (Pippen) Rockets given them enough extra toughness to make a real run?

SamFisher · May 27, 2008

tinman said:

what about Boki Nachbar?
did you see him dunk on Theo Ratcliff?

would Boki have neutralized Kyle Korver?
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No, but Tayshaun Prince - who the Rockets scouted and who was available when Nachbar was drafted - would have.

LoneStarDawg · May 27, 2008

The after-the-buzzer David Robinson tip-in in the regular season finale in San Antonio in 1993 which forced overtime, which the Rockets lost thus losing home court to Seattle in the 2nd round. We all remember how that turned out. Coulda been the start of a three-peat.

drich · May 27, 2008

Sherlock said:

I have to agree on the Sampson injury and non-trade to Portland for Jordan/Drexler, although I would reverse those 2. I also agree with the Brandon Roy debacle. I was pretty pissed about that ball being dropped. If you want to include a non-event as "non-playing," you could include Lucas/Wiggins/Maxwell drug suspensions as not giving us the team that would have been championship contenders for years earlier with Dream.

But, since the championship years, I think our drafting has been horrific, until Morey did whatever he did last year. In the 10 years after, only Yao was a decent pick. Our scouting was horrible, although we did very well in trades, and as a result often traded our picks. I agree, it seemed like Griffin was the right deal at the time, although losing him, instead of 3 good players, but was a serious loss.

But, I disagree with you on the Barkley trade. I think it was the single biggest mistake since the championship years. I really like Barkley, but think it put us on a track that killed us from becoming contenders for awhile.

Not only did Barkley not have the discipline it took to be a champion, but that decision led to a number of additional mistakes.

1) We lost Cassell and Horry for the next 10 years, but had Barkley at the tail end of his. He was never the same, although was a great rebounder, and yes, helped us past Seattle, who became a non-threat.

2) Clyde retired a year or two too early. Yes, he was on the downhill, but he still would have been a great assett at that time. When he retired, we went out and got Quitten, which was just as huge a mistake, and eventually ended up with all those bad contracts. With Quitten on the team, we didn't take Lewis with all three chances, because we didn't want to threaten Quitten, who was being very emotionally sensitive.

3) With Cassell as our starting PG, he'd still be on the team, with PG as a strength. We wouldn't have given Maloney that stupid contract, and McDeyss would have signed with us, fixing our PF spot a year later. (Unless he still got injured). He had said that the only reason he didn't go with us, was because we didn't have a good enough PG.

-----

But, the ones I'm surprised NOT on your list are in 99 and 02.

You made SUCH a big deal about how this would be something we'd regret at the time. You were a big believer in TMac at the time, and there was a possibility that he could have been included in the trade with Toronto. You said we'd always regret not doing the Olajuwon/Dickerson trade for Christie/Willis/McGrady and the 5/12. We could have drafted Shawn Marion, Andre Miller as well as Kenny Thomas. Now that might have affected whether we got Francis or not, but I think the Francis years put us into mediocrity anyway. But, you made a number of posts on how essential it was that we grab TMac at the time, whether Dream was in the trade or not, and from what I recall, there were other trade discussions.

But, at that point, if we hadn't traded for Barkley, imagine the team of McDeyss, Marion, Cassell, McGrady, Lewis, Christie, Miller, Horry, Willis, Mobely, AND cap room.

In 2002, there were trade options with LAC that were reported, where we could have gotten the 8th pick, but they were asking for Griffin and our #14, and we didn't want to give up Griffin. Imagine if we'd have gotten Stoudamire and Yao in the same draft ... rookie of the year and runner up in the same draft.

We've blown lots of chances in recent years ... ... but hopefully, we're back on track again ...
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so you are telling me that eddie griffin kicked us in the ass twice damn. We could have had the number one center along side with the number one and number two guard/small forwards in the league. Also having the number one center in the league along side the top pf in the league. Our damn scouts need there pink slips.

jerrios · May 27, 2008

how about robert horry/sean elliot falling through since sean elliot failed his physical

iBelieve · May 27, 2008

The #1 draft pick in 2002 opened up the Rockets to the world.

thacabbage · May 28, 2008

Sherlock said:

But, I disagree with you on the Barkley trade. I think it was the single biggest mistake since the championship years. I really like Barkley, but think it put us on a track that killed us from becoming contenders for awhile.

Not only did Barkley not have the discipline it took to be a champion, but that decision led to a number of additional mistakes.

1) We lost Cassell and Horry for the next 10 years, but had Barkley at the tail end of his. He was never the same, although was a great rebounder, and yes, helped us past Seattle, who became a non-threat.

2) Clyde retired a year or two too early. Yes, he was on the downhill, but he still would have been a great assett at that time. When he retired, we went out and got Quitten, which was just as huge a mistake, and eventually ended up with all those bad contracts. With Quitten on the team, we didn't take Lewis with all three chances, because we didn't want to threaten Quitten, who was being very emotionally sensitive.

3) With Cassell as our starting PG, he'd still be on the team, with PG as a strength. We wouldn't have given Maloney that stupid contract, and McDeyss would have signed with us, fixing our PF spot a year later. (Unless he still got injured). He had said that the only reason he didn't go with us, was because we didn't have a good enough PG.
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One of the rumblings I heard was that the deal was in part due to financial implications. Sam and Robert were both up for big paydays and the thinking was that each would ask for $7million - an amount we couldn't afford. So in that sense, the Barkley deal was that one last shot at it.

To get McDyess, we would have needed to retain at the least Cassell (as McDyess stated his reason for not coming here was our pathetic backcourt). But if you resign Cassell for even a modest amount, even letting Robert walk, you're not under the cap to sign McDyess. Recall that Barkley resigned for peanuts that summer.

Sherlock said:

But, the ones I'm surprised NOT on your list are in 99 and 02.

You made SUCH a big deal about how this would be something we'd regret at the time. You were a big believer in TMac at the time, and there was a possibility that he could have been included in the trade with Toronto. You said we'd always regret not doing the Olajuwon/Dickerson trade for Christie/Willis/McGrady and the 5/12. We could have drafted Shawn Marion, Andre Miller as well as Kenny Thomas. Now that might have affected whether we got Francis or not, but I think the Francis years put us into mediocrity anyway. But, you made a number of posts on how essential it was that we grab TMac at the time, whether Dream was in the trade or not, and from what I recall, there were other trade discussions.
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Great memory, but slightly off. Yes, I was very vocal about wanting McGrady back in 1999, but the deal was a bit different. McGrady wasn't part of the Hakeem trade - it was strictly 5/12/Christie/Willis. I was pushing hard for that as well.

The McGrady rumors began when the late Popeye reported that we were trying to land him for "a whole bunch of guys" as he put it. For the next year, when T-Mac was on the block, I wanted us to trade the entire team (save Francis) for him.

Sherlock said:

In 2002, there were trade options with LAC that were reported, where we could have gotten the 8th pick, but they were asking for Griffin and our #14, and we didn't want to give up Griffin. Imagine if we'd have gotten Stoudamire and Yao in the same draft ... rookie of the year and runner up in the same draft.

We've blown lots of chances in recent years ... ... but hopefully, we're back on track again ...
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From what I recall, Griffin wasn't involved. There were just seperate deals swirling about moving up from #15 to #8. Wow, imagine netting Amare and Yao in the same draft.

Try to get a grasp around this one: The year before we drafted Yao, Clutch reported that we had a near deal in place with Vancouver to send Cato, Walt Williams, and two #1's to the Grizz for Sharif Abdur Rahim.

That same #1 included in the near trade turned out to become Yao Ming. How's that for a non event impacting Rocket history?

thacabbage · May 28, 2008

AntiSonic said:

Great thread!

This one really, really hurts. IIRC, the Rockets declined a last second offer for Harper and Price immediately blew out his knee.
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This doesn't get nearly enough attention. There was a story in the Chronicle the day after the trade deadline in '96/'97 about a deal to trade Brent Price to Dallas for Derek Harper. The Mavs wanted a pick thrown in and we backed out. A few weeks later we signed Sedale Threatt to be our backup point guard. At the time of this post, I am in better shape that Sedale Threatt was at the time. Sedale Threatt became our primary point guard in the playoffs.

Now I guess I can understand not wanting to give up the pick. But you can't go into the NBA playoffs with Matt Maloney and Sedale Threatt as your point guards. If Derek Harper was in pinstripes, there is no way in hell Stockton goes berserk the last 7 minutes of Game 6.

BackNthDay · May 28, 2008

thacabbage said:

lol...

would you prefer a thread debating who the better ball handler is between luther head and shandon anderson?

technically speaking, the thread is about non-events, so the barkley and eddie griffin trades, and drafting hakeem/yao don't count.

i'll continue defending the former two to this day, however. re: the barkley trade, it was absolutely the right move to make. i think people are forgetting just how bad seattle owned us. it wasn't simply a matter of getting healthy and getting by seattle. we weren't getting by seattle with that nucleus. charles barkley was brought in to beat seattle and that's what he did. he was the single most important player on our team in that series. management's mistake was not following up on the trade by signing tim hardaway or trading for derek harper or a host of other solid veterans waiting on the sideline. they chose to go to war with matt maloney and sedale threatt and stockton killed them.

as far as eddie griffin, it backfired, but that was absolutely the right move to make. they already had what they thought was a franchise caliber guard. the team needed a franchise caliber big man, not 3 more average supporting peices, in hindsight. the glimpses eddie griffin showed in his rookie season were enough to justify management's decision. eddie's horrible downfall was on him.
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thacabbage - why do u use my feedback on Tmac as a quote. Get a positive quote my man. Be original.

danny317 · May 28, 2008

electing to draft yao instead of jason williams.

jason williams got into that motorcycle accident and blew out both knees.

poprocks · May 28, 2008

The 1998 Draft. Worst draft in Rockets History.

#14: Michael Dickerson
6'5" SG - University of Arizona

Michael Dickerson
When Jason Williams went #7 to Sacramento and Paul Pierce went #10 to Boston, you knew this was going to be a screwy draft.

But fortunately, the Rockets came away with a solid player with their first pick: Michael Dickerson.

Dickerson is not the "answer" to all the Rockets' problems at 2-guard (Clyde Drexler retiring left quite a large hole in the backcourt), but he is going to provide some depth at the position and has the potential to become a starter and very good player in this league.

Strengths:
He can score, and on some nights, he can really light it up. He is Arizona's 5th leading scorer all-time and averaged over 18 points a game the past 2 years on a team that had Mike Bibby and Miles Simon.

He's also a champion, having won an NCAA title in 1997 with the Wildcats.

Dickerson played all 4 years at college, has his head screwed on straight and is a hard worker. Some of his workouts with teams really impressed GMs around the league, as his stock rose.

Weaknesses:
Dickerson has to work on his ballhandling ability, and his defense is decent, but many question whether he'll be able to play straight up 'D' on some of the other 2's around the league.

* Chronicle: Dickerson helps cause with scouts
* Michael Dickerson Fan Page - no joke. Complete with tons of pictures and sound clips, etc. I think "Marie" is in love with Michael.
* Dickerson highlights: AVI / Quicktime
* CC98 WAV: David Stern makes the call as the Rockets select Dickerson

Some hate this pick...

I'm not one of them. Though unproven in the big boys league, Drew has the makings to be a terrific leader, and of course he already can flat out shoot the rock.

He's smart and doesn't cave in to stupid mistakes that a lot of flashy players do. He has a career 2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio, and most experts say he is a "clutch player".

Sounds like he's playing for the right city.

The question now is what are the futures of Matt Maloney and/or Brent Price in the Houston Rocket organization? It would be a crime to go into camp with three white point guards (is that a record?) - all with somewhat similar styles. They're talking about FA acquisitions such as KJ or Strickland at the point as well.

Either Price is going to be dealt or Maloney is not going to be re-signed... or both. Put your money on the Rockets desperately trying to find a new home for Price.

Profiles of Drew
# NBA.COM
# ESPN
# CNN/SI
# Sporting News

#16: Bryce Drew
6'3" PG/SG - Valparaiso

Bryce Drew
Many people felt the Rockets lost out on Rashard Lewis once they used #14 on a different player, but when the Orlando Magic took Matt Harpring with the 15th pick, hope was restored for many.

They would have to keep waiting.

The Rockets took Bryce Drew with the 16th pick, the 6'3" 190 pound guard out of Valparaiso, adding more depth to their backcourt and at best case scenario, acquiring the guy they hope takes the reigns as the Rockets' point guard of the future.

The question is... is he another Steve Nash, or another Dave Jamerson?

Damn, please don't be of the latter. Watching Jameron's career was about as fun as passing gallstones. But you take risks in the draft, and Drew is one worth taking.

Strengths:
Like Dickerson, he's a smart player who played all 4 years at college. He's famous for "the shot" against Ole Miss in last year's NCAA tourney that kept Valparaiso's cinderella season alive. Regarded as a "clutch player" who can really knock down the shot from long range.

The Rockets need shooters, and he certainly is one of them. If you were to compare him to a Jazz player, you'd compare him more to a Jeff Hornacek then to a John Stockton, but he's a heady ballplayer -- the coach's son -- and he doesn't make many mistakes (2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio in college).

Carroll Dawson says he's the best pick and roll guy in this draft, and could compliment Dream and Chuck very well.

Weaknesses:
A lot of the same weaknesses that may be found in Matt Maloney, and if he's not an upgrade from Maloney, what was the point of the pick? Some worry about how he'll guard opponents at the point since he may lack the foot speed. Quickness definitely is not his strong point, and as a result, he is not one like Dickerson who can create his own shot.
http://www.clutchfans.net/feature.cfm?FeatureID=60

By the way, does anyone see similarities between Bryce Drew and JJ Redick? LOL

plutoblue11 · May 28, 2008

Signing Daryl Morey as GM, the Rockets being 3 games out of 1st with Yao being injured for good portion of the season. Drafted Brooks and Landry. Traded for Scola. Got Francis for nothing.

(I just don't see why this team cannot win the West next year, Dallas and Phoenix have somewhat faded and I think NO and LA aren't as good as they are made out to be, plus I don't like either one of them). I hope shock a few next year and win the west by 5+ game and go like 15-2 playoffs.

Okur landing on Yao's foot....and completely ending his season in 05.

Clyde for Otis.

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Which (non)Events Had the Greatest Impact on Rocket History?

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