Lin should be our sixth man, and as such will be a better and more valuable player than Beverly. Beverly is a role player whose role is valuable with our starting five. Lin is more than a role player, but works best as the sixth man and main bench scorer.
When Asik is traded, it will probably be someone else starting instead of Jones. Do you throw out all the data then?
I am a Lin Fan. I think he's got great character and a great work ethic and he is not some arrogant prick and because of this he will always improve. I like those qualities in an athlete but here is my problem with him, he worked his ass off this summer and this is what he is. He will continue to improve but IMO he's ceiling is not much higher than what it is. And what he is appears to be what many on here claim. A very good player on a bad team or a average player on a good team. Meaning if Lin is your best go to scorer your team is probably not making the playoffs. I do believe McHale doesn't always give him a fair shake and that he is better than PBev overall but the difference is narrow and debatable and he is not worth 8 mil a year. I just don't see him improving enough to be worth that much. Especially on a team with Harden. I am not sure where he would be a good fit but it's not with teams who already have ball dominate wings. Lin needs the ball to be most effective. If he's given that role he is effective. He's shown that here and he's shown that in New York and I am certain he can show that somewhere's else. But he is not the scorer on Harden or Melo's level and there in lies the problem. WHo do you want with the ball Harden or Lin. Not a trick question, obviously Harden especially late in the game. But if you take the ball out of Lin's hands what do you have left? A 36% 3 pt shooter. Certainly he can create for others but he still has too many turnovers. His defense is good but not great. Perhaps I am wrong about this but it's been a 1 1/2 and he seems to have neared his peak.
I really like what you wrote there. Very fair. But I do have a little more faith in him. I think he could still improve. He's role on this team has been inconsistent so he still need time to adjust. I wish McHale can give him more opportunity to run the offense simply because the offense flows pretty well when he is running it. Him and Casspi helped build a 20+ points lead against the Wizards. Though he's glaring flaws are turnovers and get himself trapped and pick up the dribbles. I think he could still improve on those. I think Bev is going to start, he is more of a low risk player which you know he will do the dirty work, handle the ball well, defend well, grab rebounds.
Not really a Beverly fan due to his lack of offensive skills plus he, like his head coach, is totally lost when the opposing teams goes to a zone defense. The YOFbase appears to have mutated into the LOFbase. Sort of like the Zombie Apocalypse but with Asian/Asian-American basketball players and their followers looking for brains. Agree 100%. He makes an ideal 6th man with his skillset. His primary problem here is that the Rox second team unit is very weak at the 4 & 5 spots so a lot of what he can do gets lost in translation. I'd really like to see him on the floor with Asik but I'm afraid that ship has sailed.
It needs to be whoever can feed the ball to Dwight. So far, it doesn't look like either one of them knows how to throw an entry pass. Maybe a slight edge to Bev for not swinging the ball after staring at dwight for a couple seconds.
I disagree. If Jeremy Lin had the ball more, he'd probably average more turnovers than assist. Not being sarcastic. He'd LITERALLY average more turnovers than assist. People keep saying how much better on offense Lin is, but I don't see it. PB can actually score too
I went by win/loss because the original poster was talking about what is best for the team, and that is winning. As I wrote earlier, I don't think it shows that one lineup is better for the team than the other. And that was the point I was making, that it's just an opinion and not a fact or reality. (It's a pet peeve of mine. I hate when people state their opinion as fact and give off the attitude that everyone is delusional if they don't agree with it.) I don't have a degree in statistical analysis. But, I think it's fun trying to interpret them. So, I appreciate your making an argument using stats. I have to admit that I have no idea how accurate the +/- of a lineup is in determining their effectiveness. I don't know how large a sample size is needed, or what the variance is or how much outside factors affect it. But, I did find a similar situation that makes the +/- seem inaccurate. Durant, Ibaka, Perkins, Sefolosha, Jackson = +5.1 per game. Durant, Ibaka, Perkins, Sefolosha, Westbrook = -1.7 per game. It's their 2 most used lineups and the sample size is a little larger than the Lin and Beverley lineups. http://stats.nba.com/teamLineups.ht...5&PerMode=PerGame&sortField=MIN&sortOrder=DES I've always said that stats don't lie. But they don't always tell the complete story and can be misleading. The +/- is interesting but I don't think it proves anything one way or the other.
Interesting. To me, +/- of a 5 man lineup is about as pure of a stat as you can get. It literally only measures the scoring margin while that lineup was on the floor. It's very surprisng to see that OKC's starting lineup gets outscored by almost 2 points every game. It just goes to show that there is no end all, be all stat for lineup effectiveness. And for the record, I really had no agenda when I posted the sans-Asik records and the +/- stats of the 2 lineups. I was just curious and I thought I'd share those findings in the thread. As for my personal opinion, I think Beverley provides some energy that I think the starting lineup has been missing since his injury. And on the other side of the coin, I think we really need some additional scoring off the bench. So I would rather see Pat start and have Jeremy be the 6th man.
Nice find. There are stats that support to the theory that Lin or Bev is the better starter. Both bring different skill sets to the game, but you really can't deny when Lin's "A" game is on, he is much better than Beverly. Both on offense and defense. His inconsistency is what frustrates ALL fans, and its frustrating seeing him pass up open 3s when the defense is clearly daring him to shoot, or when he barrels into the lane against 2-3 bigs and then jumps with no clear plan of where he was going to pass or shoot. Lin has a high ceiling, but when he starts getting out of control thats when you need Bev. I personally prefer Lin to start, because he does step up in the 4th even when his games are bad. I think it is a good thing that Morey has not made any efforts in moving Lin or Bev, because we have a great PG situation. I believe depending on the situation dictates which PG to start, but you really can't deny if Lin was consistent with his "A" game showing up he is the definite starter. It's a big indication that the only news we hear of Morey shopping Lin around was for a much better PG like CP3 or Deron Williams (before the injury and decline in performance this year). Otherwise Lin's upside is a strong reason to keep him developing with this team.
I always hesitate when people do this 5-player line up comparison. There are 10 players on the floor, you fixed 4 of them, and contribute the rest 6 player's performance all to the one player you are comparing, I'm not sure whether that is fair or not. When the sample size is large enough, and you consider the other 5 player from the opponent team are variable enough, that you end up with their average performance, that's when +/- starts to reflect some real meaning, thus sample size is critical. Even that, there is assumption that the other 4 players are performing the same all the time when they are playing together with the two player one is comparing, which is not always the case.
Well, they do need to get rid of Perkins. A banged up Westbrook just can't make up for having two offensive drags on the team.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Got some great news today rednation!!!!!</p>— Patrick Beverley (@patbev21) <a href="https://twitter.com/patbev21/statuses/422833725462691840">January 13, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> Maybe we find out tonight.
Perkins was a constant in that. That shows that the Thunder perform better with Williams vs. Westbrook. I don't follow the Thunder close enough to be able to theorize why, but definitely interesting.
