Sky, it's nice to see that there are some mature and intelligent LA fans out there. I don't think Will or any of us (the resonable Rocket fans) are trying to push for this Shaq/Kobe for Pippen trade. You and among other LA fans may not like the Pippen for Rice & Horry trade, but that was what the LA mgmt presented to the Houston mgmt (if we believe what all the sources had said). So if LA was going to insult us (in our opinion) with that proposal, what is wrong for us to propose this ridiculous trade? I personally won't make that trade (Pip for Shaq) either, if I was an LA fan. But since this is a Rocket board, this is what you will hear. No disrespect to you Sky, but if LA think that we are that stupid we want to say that LA is just as stupid.
Would you give up one of the fastest rising stars in the NBA and an above average C/PF for a 33-year old coming off elbow surgery on his shooting arm? Sounds stupid, huh? Oh wait, Jerry West did that last year! If we get the same kind of deal that Toronto got for Clemens, I'll be happy. [This message has been edited by Rocketman95 (edited August 13, 1999).]
Popeye - Jackson was very open about coveting Pippen in his press confrence when he was hired. But West makes the player personnel decisions, and Laker management from the owner on down has been consistent in the past month in saying Pippen's terrible back and contract, as well as a now cap required 3-for-1 for Pippen is too high a price to pay. I suppose it's possible that Pippen still ends up in LA by the Lakers adding a 3rd player to the mix that Houston wants, or working a 3-way, but that's hard to envision on either end. Pippen may bolt, but at this stage it seems doubtful he arrives in LA and that's fine with me.
Dotter and Sailor, those are the most sensible and objective posts I've seen here. It seems the message is finally sinking in - the Lakers, and their fans, could really care less about Pippen. Phil wants him, but not THAT bad to mortgage the franchise's future, which is any deal that gives up more than Rice. We (the Lakers) don't HAVE to do anything beyond look for a 4. The Rockets seemingly DO have to do something. Pip has all the leverage here, not the Rockets, contract or no. On top of that, the Penny deal could drive Pip's value league wide down. Penny is younger and has simliar skills, and look what Orlando took for him in a very similar situation! The Rockets' best move would be to try to dump Pip on a team for almost zilch and get rid of his contract. Call the Raptors again, maybe they're still itching to deal w/ you. Reality is, Pip has screwed you twice now - his contract and now his whining. He's nothing more than Jordan's caddy w/ low trade value.
I am with Popeye on this one 100%. Who says we have to trade Mr. Pippen to the Lakers. I think that is crazy to limit ourselves to that team just because the Jerk Pippen says so. The last time I checked he signed a multi year deal with the Rockets (arriving to the Press Conference with smiles in that White Limo). So much for Knight in Shining Armor... But we need to start talking with the Raptors or the Celtics or whoever has the cap space and young, athletic players the Rockets could benefit from. So what if teams now know that Pippen wants out of Houston. It does not mean that we have to give him up. He is our property for the next 4 years (for better or for worse). On another note. I agree that this has to be the last straw for Rudy and Pippen. Pippen pulled this stunt last year (complaining about the system and his not fitting in BS). Rudy has always stood behind Pippen and I hope he does everything in his power to get Pip out of Houston. Pippen sold out his coach, team mates (i.e. Barkley from last years playoffs), fans, and the City of Houston. Smiling all the way to the Bank. What a gutless loser.... ------------------ Firm believer that the Rockets will be a far better team with Gary Payton running the show!!!
Rocketman - You're oversimplifying. The deal was forced upon West by Buss, who wanted to unload Elden Campbell and his $8 mil. deadweight, given that he couldn't play alongside Shaq. Jones was let go because he was a shooting guard that can score but can't shoot. They lost his D and paid a huge price. The Pippen situation is hardly comparable. Here's a player pouting over his current system and trying to force his way out. He might help for a year in LA but lose his effectiveness soon while the albatross contract keeps going and going. If you guys want to dream about Shaq and Kobe, you're right it's your privilege to throw dumb trades around in here go ahead, but a dream is all it will ever be.
Rocketman95, the other way to state your trade from last year would be, "Would LA trade a great shooting guard when they had Kobe Bryant in the wings along with a C/PF who was considered lazy and only performed when Shaq was injured, for arguably the single best shooter in the NBA." Similarly, our Pippen-Rogers trade could be described as "Would you trade a young, raw talent for an overpaid, aging, whiny player who's never been THE MAN on a team who's just had back surgery.". As you can see, how you describe the deal is really not relevent. If you could have any (and only) two of these players, who'd you take: Shaq, Kobe, Pippen, Olajuwon, Barkley. I'd take Shaq and Kobe... And LA already has both of them, so why dump them?.... If Phil is supposedly the great coach everyone claims, he should be able to adapt his system to fit them.
I don't get why a deal of Rice and Horry for a washed up whiner is an insult? Would any other team give up a star and a good role player for that? No way. Look at what Pip did for your team last year and then think about Rice's abilities. Rice can carry a team on some nights, while Pip can't and never has. Objectively, as of today, Rice and Pip are pretty even. But tomorrow, Pip's value goes down, and it's even further downhill from there, and West, and every other GM knows it.
As much as I don't appreciate Pippen's whining at different times, he's still an incredible player, certainly not MJ, but considered by many the "best all around player in the league." The fear is regarding his back or age, due to last year's declining output. The Rockets don't seem to be caving on this one, so there's a good chance he'll stay. If LA won't give us fair trade value, Pippens' best chance of getting to LA is to prove his back and age are not a problem and play so well this next year, that LA will be willing to give fair trade value, in order for him to run the triangle offense. Pippen is a pro, and MJ and Barkley will take him aside and tell him to get his act together with excellence, not blameshifting. Everybody's assuming that Pippen will have a bad attitude if he's not traded, but I don't think that will be the case. Remember Dream wanting to be traded in '95, then led us to a championship? Pippen says he likes the Rocket organization, but has an intimate relationship with his long-time coach. He doesn't want to go anywhere else, so he'll probably have to buckle down and stay here, if as a result of his sub-par performance last year, the Rockets can't get adequate compensation for him in a trade to where he'd like to go most. The bigger problem will be the fans forgiving Pippen for coming out with this so publicly. We feel spurned, and he's going to have to win us back, not by words, but by kicking some ass this next year.
I see what your trying to say jswayer. But the Rockets Dont want Rice or horry. Rice is a great player. But Houston doesnt want a player that plays like that. If this was like 2 or 3 years ago. Maybe it could happen. But since now houston wants to get more of a running game. And you know that Rice is not a player that goes with that style of running game.
JSawyer, One thing you fail to realize. Basketball is more than just offense. You have this little thing called Defense. I don't think Rice has heard of it. The last time I checked Pippen was ALL NBA first or second team defense. So if you are comparing Rice for Pippen I would say that Pippen is far better than Rice because he can still play offense and defense. ------------------ Firm believer that the Rockets will be a far better team with Gary Payton running the show!!!
Testcase, Even though your picture has nothing to do with the thread, it is nevertheless my new wallpaper!!
jsawyer, using your logic/argument: I don't see why a Pippen for a poor free-throw shooter is a dumb trade for Laker. Would any other team give up a 7-time allstar for that? No way. Look at what Shaq have done for the Lakers all these years (no rings) and think of what Pippen had done in previous years. Pippen has obviously been able to bring a team a title while Shaq can't and never has. Objectively, as of today, Shaq and Pippen are pretty even. But tomorrow, Shaq's value goes down, and it's even further downhill from there, and Rudy, and every other GM knows it. That was your opinion and view and this is mine. It's not realistic, but hope you see my point. [This message has been edited by MoonBus (edited August 13, 1999).]
Dream34 - trust me, I know that after going through the whole Eddie/Rice thing last year. But Pip's back is reportedly getting so bad that his D, along w/ everything else, will degrade considerably soon - real soon. And back injuries never get better. Add to that his age and Pippen is nothing to get excited about. Rice still has at least 3-4 years left of bombing and being a team's main scoring threat - Pip's got 1, 2 MAX of being a decent contributer. Add to that the fact that shooters tend to last longer than slashers (see: Dale Ellis, Eddie Johnson, etc.), Rice could even add a few years after that as a designated shooter. At least he'll have a use LONG after Pip is done and wheeling himself around, begging Jordan to let him drive his kids to school. After all that, the fact is - we don't want Pip, you don't want Rice. Fine w/ me and 80%+ of Laker fans, and Laker management. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out, Pippen trying to kiss up to Rudy and the fans. It could be ugly.
Sherlock: Agree with your assessment that if Pippen stays he would most likely have play hard and fast to improve his marketability if not appease the fans. I am not advocating the Rice/Horry trade,but... ... really,if we had our druthers,as my grandpa would say, wouldn't it be safer for us to unload his butt for anything resembling a fair trade and take our lumps and go on... I like quality over quantity under most circumstances.However,the quality here(Pippen's heart and ability to perform) may be in question, and I would rather have twoquestions (Rice/Horry/Or whatever)worth $12Million dollars, than the one $14.7 Million Dollar("Mommy can I sleep with you tonight,Daddy won't let me suck my thumb" Pippen) who has already showed his propensity to whine and sit if he doesn't ge his ay. Just a Thought.
MoonBus - Shaq is in his prime and carries his team night in and night out - you would still be getting that if a trade happened. Pippen USED to be able to help his team, though he never carried a team. That is fact. On top of that, Pip isn't a great FT shooter himself - what, around 60% career? Not much better than the Diesel. The point is - Rice, Kobe, Shaq are all in their prime, Pip is far from it. So what if Pip was a 7-time all-star? He isn't in that league anymore. And it'll get worse. The Lakers wouldn't be trading for a 7-time all-star, we'd be trading for a player whose best days are long gone. Our big 3 still have at worst 3 great years left at their peak level. That's fact. It won't happen anyway - we'll keep Rice (gladly) and Pip will remain on your bench, sulking and doing little to help your team, which is too bad - 14 mil used get you a good player.
Pippen33 - yes, and in fact, 80% could be conservative. Might be closer to 90% if we took a poll. Pippen is not the player he used to be. Rice still is, and we wanna keep him. We keep a good offensive balance for many years instead of having a washed up Pippen for 1 year, maybe 2.
Hey i was looking in the Lakers BBS, And it sure looked looked like everyone was Really happy thinking of pippen coming to the lakers. I say 80% were happy that he might be a laker.
