Turnover distribution of this team vs. championship teams

It's pretty simple Harden plays heavy minutes and is pretty much the only play maker. It's been explained before.

 

He's been doing it since the beginning of the season.

 

he was. he just played defense last year.

 

Dude you realize that Bigs will never have more turnovers than guards right?

 

when we waive terrence -ones we'll probably solve all the team's problems.

 

Comments? Yeah how about HOU get Harden some help. Compare the supporting casts of all these teams and you'll have your eureka moment.

 

Besides Harden own flaws and being TO prone due to his style of play, I'd say it's not necessarily about his teammates, but more so our offensive system. A system heavily based on iso and 99% of them by Harden + Harden handling the ball and initiating our offense for about 90% (estimate) of the time he's in there, which is 38 MPG, then that just spells a horrible TO ratio. That's why this season is a blessing, because these few years with Harden have not been pretty in terms of team basketball.

Change was needed and had we kept winning, we would've suffered 2-3 more years with McHale and this roster. Now the organisation is really forced to look at our heavily flawed roster, philosophy and coaching staff so that we can finally start to see a real attempt to become a team which does not rely on Harden so much. This will then hopefully lead to a more focused Harden who becomes less TO prone due to the system, the roster and his own maturation. We can only hope for those for now, but at least it cannot get worse than this.

 

What about Ty Lawson.

 

Turnovers don't matter. They don't affect wins or losses

 

Amen about the offense. I'll give Harden a pass this year on the TOV - Lawson was not the guy we thought he'd be. Even with harden on the bench Lawson was passive (and not in the good - assist - kind of way). Our offense does nothing to get the other team shaken up. Good teams have the defense scrambling through off ball screens before the playmaker even begins his pick n roll (or whatever the play is). James is attacking a set and still defense every time. If every 5th play had a guy cutting to the rim his Assist/TO ratio would be much higher.

Agree on him needing to work on an Off-Ball game. Folks who think the ball should be in his hands all the time, every time are just nuts. He has bad games - games where he's dribbling the ball off his foot and being bothered by a longer defender. When DMo is in the post, when Beasley is working on an ISO, run an off ball screen (AT FULL SPEED) for James and see what happens.

Disagree on "it cannot get worse than this". It can always get worse.

 

No doubt he needs to take better care of the ball, but I expect it to work itself out if and when we ever get a functional supporting cast around him to take some of the pressure off. The guy has to work so hard with the ball in his hands.

I'd be interested to see what his TO numbers are like with different lineups, particularly when Bev and Brewer are on the floor with him as they add almost nothing offensively.

 

You did research to determine that Harden commits more turnovers than any player to ever win a championship?

Let me save you some time in the future. If a player is going to set the record for anything then it's impossible for any player to have a greater amount in that category (with or without winning a championship). No research needed, it's common sense. Nobody can have more than the guy that has the most in history.

The flaw in your argument is that you seem to believe that it's impossible for something to happen if it hasn't already occurred. Last year at this time you could have been making the same argument that GS couldn't win a title because no team has ever won the championship while shooting that many 3 point shots.

In fact, Charles Barkley made that exact point last season saying a "jump shooting team" couldn't win a title...and he was obviously wrong.

Maybe you should go research to see if any player who attempts more than 700 3s in a season has ever won a title. Then you can let Steph Curry and his 844 3 point attempts know that he won't be winning a title this year because he's doing something that no NBA champion has done before.

EDIT: Harden is averaging +0.6 turnovers per game over last season. Do you really believe that that extra .06 turnovers per game is the reason for the dramatic difference in our season this year?
Our opponents are scoring 19.5 pts off of turnovers this year. Last season our opponents scored 18.3 pts off of our turnovers. That additional 1.2 pts off of turnovers is nowhere near the top reason for our problems this season.

 

So he didn't want Ty Lawson on the team to help him playmake?

Look they tried their best this offseason to improve in that area and failed miserably. You can't put that all on Harden because even without Harden on the court Lawson failed to find a rhythm and produce.

All you Harden haters are ridiculous, this team needs help and while he is a small part of the problem he will be a huge part of the solution whether you like it or not.

 

Negative Nancy over here. Season ain't over yet.

We need to follow a 3 step process:

Step 1: Turn the corner
Step 2: Other teams fear facing us in the playoffs
Step 3: Win the title​

 

dayum, aelliott.



(You're right, of course. Still, we aren't headed for a championship anytime soon.)

 

Not sure if everyone in this thread, including bbholic himself understands the argument. It's not about the amount of TOs Harden has, but the TO proportion in relation to the team. In other words, it's not so much about Harden but about the team.

I don't think it proves that the Rockets in its current state cannot win championship, as aelliott pointed out. But it does indicate a possible problem in how this team is constructed.

This is the same type of argument that almost no championship team could win without at least two superstars. But the Detroit Pistons broke the pattern. It doesn't mean the argument is totally worthless.

 

It's already been pointed out earlier that this ratio is influenced heavily due to the fact that we don't have a secondary ballhandler. If we had another passer then along with more assists, that player would also produce more turnovers (ths more you pass the greater your chance of turnovers).

Bottom line is what I said above. Harden's turnovers aren't hugely different than last year and our opponents points off of turnovers aren't either. Those aren't the reason for our falloff this season. The primary reasons for that are on the defensive side of the ball.

 

You must agree that Team Point Differential is a very good indicator of final seeding and playoff success. This has be shown to a good indicator by many skilled statisticians.

A 1.2 pt difference would make us 6th seed right now. And considering we were only 1 game away from taking the Spurs 6th seed last year, you can indeed make an argument that a 1.2 difference is actually very big.

So, you can't both say Pt Diff is a good indicator, then say one factor in a team's play that produces a 1.2pt difference (all by itself) is no big deal. And that's just the transition points that count as fast breaks in the boxscore. Secondary break points don't count.

 

Harden's turnovers are the only turnovers that matter. The other 71% of our turnovers do not matter.

 

It doesn't work that way.

Subtracting the 1.2 difference due to turnovers without adding the positives of the additional scoring, doesn't show you anything useful.