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Trading Harden is the answer

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by shocky2002, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    They need a legit forward. Doesn't have to be an all star but has to be legit. Ok... great, so how do we get that? The obvious answer would have been to trade Gordon's expiring contract. Problem - they extended him for some absurd reason. The only other actual solution seems to be cross our fingers for a legit waiver candidate, or DM pulls a rabbit out of the hat. They could pick up a piece or two to get more depth, but we've seen what happens with depth and MDA. They get in and out of the lineup, and come high pressure situations anyway, can't be counted on.

    The 65 win team was "it". And I would have happily been wrong about my position from 3'ish years ago, and eaten crow, and even paid the $100 for that bet I have with whomever. But recall part of my argument was that the GSW were just too good with KD. But even the GSW argument aside, while Harden has gotten better and taken the Harden good stuff to the extreme, he remains deficient in the areas where he was always deficient, so my argument remains - no defense, too many turnovers, too little off ball movement, average leadership (lots of finger pointing) and a 3 point % that is almost always statistically significantly worse in the playoffs, which hurts flow and role when you are dependent on a team with lots of role players.

    But again, they got close... VERY VERY close. With that dominant GSW team basically intact. That dominant team is gone, but others have seem to have taken their place. The Bucks are on a 71 win pace. The Lakers are on a 66 win pace. While the Rockets have gotten worse - sure, they're still slightly better than they were at an equivalent gamecount last year, but last year's team was trending up... and even with that, lost in the 2nd round.

    Wrt Russ, it's so VERY easy to see, just 41 games in, why he can both be beloved and frustrated by a fan base. I do like him. I like his attitude. I like his game style. His effort. His hustle. His demeanor. His pace. Etc. The dude just can't shoot. OKC fans went through what, 11 years of this? How frustrating. This guy is maybe a top 10 player all time if he could just shoot. The fact that he can't, in the NBA of the 2010's+, dominates so much of the flaws of his game its crazy. But he can't shoot, so its not a perfect marriage.

    The real answer is hope DM figures something out.

    The dream what-if answer is trade Harden and speed up a rebuild. As close as "you" were to being right, it didn't happen, and as much as I hope DM can figure something out, now more than ever its hard to see it working. In the playoffs this team has to go at least 2 rounds with the likes of Lakers, Clippers, Nuggets, Jazz, Mavericks, or Thunder. ALL of these teams play hard, solid, fundamental basically, on both sides of the court. The Rockets have a system, a top talent and a team to go toe to toe and take one, maybe two out, but to go 3 rounds, then have to potentially face a Bucks team, or Eastern team that beats the Bucks... it's VERY hard to see happening. They're a half game behind a Mavs team that won 33 games last year (granted also a Mavs team that hasn't made it out of the first round since they won the championship 8/9 years ago). They're only 3 games ahead of an OKC team that wasn't even trying to win really.

    And to make a long post even longer... wrt to your specific question on Harden, media narrative aside, I think his game is starting to wear some fans thin. I root for him as hard as anyone, but it's not the easiest player style to root for. It's just NOT. In his less than impossibly amazing run of the last few weeks, he's not doing anything different than he always does. He's just not been quite as good. And when he's not quite as good, his frustrating play-style is painfully obvious. Personally, I find it super frustrating even he's going for 40+ on great efficiency. It's just kind of hard to watch a bit.
     
  2. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    The ideal scenario, if a "true" rebuild, would be a team with a couple of solid young assets, plus draft picks owed to them by other crappy teams. That doesn't really exist anymore though.

    https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/team

    All the more reason why, if this was every a serious consideration, you have to wait until the offseason. Trading harden to a team during the year, that team just will get better. Harden is a system to himself that can win regular season games.

    But in the offseason, if I know Phoenix for example has a top 3 pick, and can talk them into Booker, Ayton, top 3 pick for Harden... that's a tough one to turn down, even recognizing Booker/Ayton together have done jack squat as far as winning. Harden loves/loved Phoenix, and if he's going anywhere, sending him to a team Eddie Johnson covers is the icing on the cake, lol.
     
  3. Stephen_A

    Stephen_A Member

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    Ok thank you for expounding on the topic. You have a better grasp than me. I don’t understand your point about Ariza though and don’t have enough info to refute all I know is he wanted more money. It came down to dollars. My criticism is on morey, his assistant and basketball operations people. If you look at the history of his decisions in terms of drafts and trades a lot of good players were given away for nothing. But hindsight makes it easier. I’m sure if you looked at the other GMs there’s always players that get away and become very good players. But the issue I have is he kept trading assets either for vets, cash, other useless draft picks the harden and CP3 deal not included because those were costly but great deals for the betterment of the team. But guys like Morris, mirotic, and batum were all traded which makes me wonder and question the executives and scouting teams in how they evaluate players and how they go about making these personnel decisions.
     
    #83 Stephen_A, Jan 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
    Kim likes this.
  4. BigDog63

    BigDog63 Member

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    I don't disagree. Just want everyone to be aware that 'blow it up' does just what it says. It blows it all up. Great for getting rid of stuff. Building it back up, though? That takes a lot more time and luck than people think when they're screaming 'blow it up!'.

    Mavs went through this for years, which I think might bear consideration. If they traded Dirk...who were they going to rebuild around? Nobody. Also, you'd get a lot of parts and pieces back, but no superstar. ie, adding parts and pieces to your existing parts and pieces. Many of which you'd just discard. That would help reshuffle the team, but you'd still be without any superstar. With Westbrook, they would have a star caliber player to build around...but is that what people want? A team build around Westbrook instead of Harden? I suspect not...

    I think the reality is the Rockets are stuck with their current makeup at least through next year. Not saying its ideal...but it is what it is.

    Haven't looked through the whole thread...did anyone come up with a plausible trade that made sense? ie...not just running through the trading calculators out there and finding matching salaries...but a trade the other team might actually do, and that would make sense for the Rockets? I'm going to guess...no. Because, again, those trades are in the unicorn vicinity, if not actual unicorns.

    I do agree that perhaps bold thinking is understandable here, though. ie, if you really believe it isn't going to get better (and I don't think mgmt is on that page at all yet), then maybe starting the process now rather than a year and a half from now makes sense. Still be painful, long and tedious...but at least it would have started.
     
  5. BigDog63

    BigDog63 Member

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    Here's the kicker...yes, this is what the Rockets would need to look for. BUT in order for the other team to be wanting to make such a deal, they need to be in a position where they think that Harden is the piece they need to put them in contention. Ie, it needs to be a pretty good team. How many pretty good teams have those types of assets? The PHX one you describe *might* fit the bill, but is that really going to make them elite? Or would they rather stick with their young talent and develop? What makes that enticing for us is generally the very same thing that makes it less enticing for the other team.
     
  6. N2bnfunn

    N2bnfunn Member

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    I am so sick this dude. He plays only when he wants too. Doesn’t guard anyone. Something is wrong with this guy.
     
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  7. jeevinesh

    jeevinesh Member

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    The only pick that I'd trade Harden for is Doncic because he's a decade younger and will get similar production in a few years.

    Not Middleton and picks. Not Simmons.

    And more elite players will want to play with Doncic. I don't think all stars want to play with Harden any longer.
     
  8. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    I thought we got below the cap last year or so . . .
    and would have 3 years to go over it without super cap issues

    Rocket River
     
  9. Francis3422

    Francis3422 Member

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    Harden/filler to Minnesota for KAT/Covington/2 first rounders

    Capela/Kat/Tuck
    KAT/Tuck
    Covington/McLemore
    Gordon/Clemons
    Westbrook/Rivers
     
  10. jeevinesh

    jeevinesh Member

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    I think the only issue with Morey is that he pulls the trigger too fast sometimes. Especially when there is ANY all star available regardless of fit
     
  11. kingkingston

    kingkingston Member

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    This is stupid
     
  12. Corpusfan

    Corpusfan Member

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    Rockets fans are really taking a lot for granted when they start suggesting trading Harden.
     
  13. DaDakota

    DaDakota Contributing Member

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    Not really, he is a 30 year old with maybe 2-4 years left at peak performance, is clearly NOT a leader - and his contract and sway with the org has screwed any chance he has of winning a championship here.

    DD
     
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  14. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    Here's the issue I and most others have on the Ariza topic:

    You were capped out.
    You had nothing but the MLE (Which went unspent) and veteran minimum contracts to offer outside free agents. No financial vehicles to replace him with a comparable talent.

    Now remember we are talking about a guy who played 38 minutes a night and was the anchor of the defense.

    Your choices were resign Ariza to a competitive offer or let him walk for nothing and have a gaping hole as a result.


    Signing him put you in the luxury tax , that was the only downside - Money.

    PHX turned around and traded him for Oubre. That $15m investment became a quality young wing that was on a rookie contract earning $2.1m at the time of the trade.

    You didn't have to keep Ariza but you couldn't let the asset walk away with no return at all , especially when you were the 2nd best team in the entire league. You had to get something in return.

    Two Plus seasons later you still have that gaping hole and no way to solve it.
     
  15. RocketsFido

    RocketsFido Member

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    And Ariza wasn't the last asset Tilman let just walked for free because of money. We even traded away picks to get rid of salary to save money on luxury tax! With this kind of owner at the helm, we will only ever win by blind luck.
     
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  16. caneks

    caneks Rookie

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    It is one of the options, not an answer. The best option is to get rid of Morey so this ballclub can move onto the right direction.
     
  17. Stephen_A

    Stephen_A Member

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    To me not knowing the specifics except he qualified to negotiate for bird rights. He aldo wanted tons more money in a long term deal. Maybe morey and the boys didn’t know if oubre was available and thought it would be too high cost to sign a 1 year deal since they’d already not want to sign on bird rights. Just too costly. Hindsight is great but maybe they didn’t think they could turn him for a trade and didn’t see oubre or other guys available and the suns were in the right place and right time to get him. We don’t know that. Maybe you guys know more than me I’m just basing everything of limited reporting and my own opinion and limited knowledge of nba contracts.
     
  18. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    Brilliant .... Best post in thread.

    Yep , get rid of the guy who turned Tracy McGrady's corpse into James Harden.
     
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  19. Codman

    Codman Contributing Member

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    I got unwarranted flaming hell when I told fans that Ego and Ryan Anderson were coming here.

    You deserve some hellish comments for this.

    Tell me the equal value you get back in trading Harden.

    Tell me the value you get back in rebuilding...wait, you can't: Rebuilding is all based on chance.

    A player like Harden comes around every once in 40 years.

    This idea is hellish.

    The Rockets need 2 or three stable role guys (or the home run, near-all star) and they'll be right in the thick of the WCF.

    We've been in a bad stretch.

    Trade James? trade yourself. :)
     
  20. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    I pretty much agree with you .... BUT ....

    Tell me how you plan to acquire these two or three stable role guys or that near allstar ?
     
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