Thoughts on the futility of the PNR offense this year

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by hotballa, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. hotballa

    hotballa Contributing Member

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    I know it's early but the PNR offense just looks bad for long stretches this season. The main problem is that nobody respects our bigs to hit a spot up jumper or catch a pass and do something with it. As a result, everytime Lin or Harden runs the PNR, the defenders both converge on the handler because they are not afraid of Omer hitting a jumper or being able to catch the ball on the run. Our PFs can do it sometimes, but they're very inconsistent with their jump shots from what I've seen.

    Until we get a big man that can hit a mid range jumper, the PNR will just be a self-setting trap for our offense. I don't care who you are, if you get doubled everytime on the PNR, you're going to wind up making a mistake sooner or later. At the very least, the offense gets screwed up and we have to go into ISO mode because there's no time on the clock to run another set play. Chris Paul could look bad in this offense IMO
     
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  2. BigMaloe

    BigMaloe Contributing Member

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    +1... i agree, which is why everyome around here wants a stud big man...
     
  3. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

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    Do you have numbers on the success rate of the team on pick'n roll? Synergy sports has them.
     
  4. nono

    nono Member

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    Asik can set the pick, but he has butter hands and also can't roll to the basket strongly. Maybe Asik will improve this part of his game. It is one reason why our offense consists of 4 people standing on the perimeter and Asik running around setting picks. Amongst all of the teams I've seen this season, we run one of the ugliest offenses. Like you said, no one respects Asik's offense and hence pick and roll doesn't really work with him.

    We don't really have much of a choice at the moment though. We just don't have the players yet to do what we'd like to. I am sure Morey is going to go after a power forward who is a strong post player. Al Jefferson would be ideal. He is one of the best post players in the league, an excellent rebounder and his defensive shortcomings would be made up for by Asik. He is the perfect complement to Asik in my opinion.
     
  5. charles_zed

    charles_zed Member

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    When they trap, Omer just needs to make the extra pass or take it to the rim. He's shown the ability to do it in the Miami game. Of course, not every front-court will be as diminutive nor every defense excessively helpful but it's not a complete waste. It was much, much more effective than Harden dribbling the air out of the ball.
     
  6. hotballa

    hotballa Contributing Member

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    nope, I honestly didn't even know they tracked that nowadays :eek: It's just based on the games I've watched. It just seems like the smart teams ignore the pick and double up on the handler. I see it working almost everytime. Almost always results in a bad pass or rushed shot.
     
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  7. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    Rockets need to trade for Blake Griffin. :grin:
     
  8. hotballa

    hotballa Contributing Member

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    Just to follow up on this post. Maybe we should stop setting the pick so high and move it closer to the paint when teams are playing man.
     
  9. AbrahamLincoln

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    I still feel like we will make a play for Pau. Either that or we need to find someone besides Delfino to make teams pay on the perimeter. As far as finding a more offensive big goes, It's early but Ive liked what I've seen out of Greg Smith and I think he would be a more traditional 4 and could create more problems in the post than Patterson does. You won't see him jacking up threes and he is a good rebounder.
     
  10. AbrahamLincoln

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    Also, we seem slow to initiate the pnr and teams are able to get set defensively. It would be great to see us start our offense earlier. Lin and Harden always seem to slowly set up the pnr and then get swatted or turn the ball over.
     
  11. jocar

    jocar Member

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    Any of the 3 rooks will be effective in pnrs. Particularly DMo whose height will give him an edge on the receiving end. They all have the bodies, quickness and range for it to be successful at it. We either wait till they're ready or bring someone in, b/c Asik's plate is already full and PPat is still semi allergic to paint.

    It sucks watching Lin run the pnr and get stuck at a dead-end with 3-4 jerseys collapsing in on him every time. I'm sure the front office sees this, but they are thinking long term dynasty and won't waste cap space by just sticking a temporary band-aid on it. Better for the team, but painful for us :)
     
  12. roxxy

    roxxy Member

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    I am really hoping terrence sees a few more minutes. He is the only player who set a pick & rolled hard to the rim. It was in pre-season but it still happened hoping he can bring it again. Just once I want to see somebody set a proper pick & roll hard to the rim is that to much to ask??!
     
  13. hotballa

    hotballa Contributing Member

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    If Asik didn't have hands of stone, he would more than suffice for the PNR in most spots. Sadly, soft hands is just not something that can be taught IMO. Having him set the pick is bad coaching because it does not put Omer in a position to succeed.
     
  14. torocan

    torocan Member

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    Ask and ye shall recieve

    James Harden

    2011/12
    33% pick and roll plays, 0.988 ppp
    12.7% isolation plays, 1.032 ppp (#1 in NBA)

    2012/13
    28% pick and roll plays, 0.92 ppp
    24% isolation plays, 0.74 ppp

    Jeremy Lin

    2011/12
    42.5% pick and roll plays, 0.75 ppp
    12.5% isolation plays, 1.022 ppp (#2 in NBA)

    2012/13
    24% pick and roll plays, 0.74 ppp
    14% isolation plays, insufficient plays for sample

    Houston Rockets 2012/13
    9.6% isolation
    14% pick and roll ball handler
    5.7% pick and roll Roll man
    2.2% off screens
    14.3% transition
    4% post ups
    8.2% cut
    26.3% spot up

    Translation ... Harden's PnR support is down somewhat, Lin's PnR support is down MASSIVELY. Harden's being forced to ISO at almost double the rate, and Lin is doing ISO's about 15% more often.

    We're running VERY few screens and doing ALOT of spot up shooting.

    Both Harden AND Lin's efficiency is significantly to WAY down in PnR and Isolation. PnR and Isolation declines tend to point to insufficiencies in both PnR support (rolling big man and offensive schemes) as well as spacing issues (floor too packed).

    In conclusion...

    Harden is being used somewhat ineffectively.
    Lin is being used VERY ineffectively.
     
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  15. dantian

    dantian Member

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    Asik is a Noah, Varajao, Chandler type of PnR bigman. Good to great picks but cannot do much with the ball unless close under basket. Amare if healthy would make this team emulate what Suns were under DA back then, with better PG defense. :)
     
  16. <3myrockets

    <3myrockets Contributing Member

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    i agree it would help a ton if we had a mid range big but in the meantime it looks like we've been punishing that double team by having asik roll hard toward the basket and have someone flash the baseline when the help d comes in. and you're right it makes sense to run it closer to the arc because of that mid range limitation.
     
  17. Hui

    Hui Member

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    Man I miss Schola
     
  18. HardLin

    HardLin Member

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    Pick and Roll works well for both Lin and Harden.

    Problem is we don't have big men that set picks(well) and can roll(well).

    Asik sets mediocre picks. Most of the time the screens he sets do not hinder the ball handlers defender at all, sometimes resulting in a double team of the ball handler. Once in a while he sets a devastating pick, usually resulting in an easy bucket for the ball handler.

    Asik also has a problem being a roll target because he can't finish well.

    Asik is improving though, so I expect Lin and Hardens points & assists to go up as the season progresses. Other than Asik, only Aldrich seems to set passable picks. The rest of the bigs are still a work in progress.
     
  19. torocan

    torocan Member

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    One would hope there's improvement, but it's a long way to go.

    Just pull up some Perkin or Chandler pick and roll highlights and compare them to the picks we set, and you realize how woefully lacking we are in terms of pick setting big men.

    This doesn't even factor in the numerous OTHER players on teams that set Picks in addition to the Big Men.

    It's not uncommon for teams to have Multiple players capable of setting picks and screens so you end up with double or even triple picks and screens to break their ball handlers free of the most tenacious Defenses.

    Ideally you want to see Asik, Patterson and Parsons all moving to set picks, back picks, and screens in layered or staggered formations to not only break Harden and Lin free, but to free shooters and cutters as well.

    We're a VERY long way from having effective PnR and screening.
     
  20. mike_lu

    mike_lu Member

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    Greg Smith actually showed signs of being a capable PnR screener. Has less size than Asik, and not a Pick-n-Pop threat, but he actually rolls to the basket well and can score on dunk, lay-ins or short hooks.

    But it's been limited minutes.
     

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