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Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by popeye, Sep 7, 1999.

  1. Azim da Dream

    Azim da Dream Member

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    If your saying Mobely is better than what Cassell was in his first year or two, then I see where your coming from - even if I don't entirely agree. But if your saying that Cuttino is better than what Cassell is now (or how he was before getting injured), then I have to completely disagree with you.

    E.T has a knack of penetrating to the hole, and often controlls the flow of the game. Mobley is fast, but Cassell is faster. Like Mobley, he has an annoying sense of over-confidence about him, and he is often daring and takes big risks, - particularly with the Rockets - just like the Cat.

    But the biggest difference between Sam and
    Cuttino is that Sam came out on big games and was clutch. I know that Mobes has only played one year, but E.T hit some big shots in his rookie year, and was a major puzzle for both championship seasons. As for who will be the better player in the end, only time, and Rudy T, know that one. [​IMG]

    Azim da Dream

    ------------------
    Anyone here fluent in Hutzonian?
     
  2. popeye

    popeye Member

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    Heres what ya'll got to ask yourself:

    Question:

    Given all the available data and potential,including present salary, future worth, present team value, ability for explosiveness, scoring per touch, versatility, assist to turnover ratio ....... Who would I want playing for me right now?

    Answer: Hands down,no doubt .... Cat
     
  3. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Contributing Member

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    the time is June 94, Mobley time travels back. Who do you want to play PG Cassell or Mobley?


    Hands down, Cassell. He has the rings to prove it. Now, it is a mute point since Cassell has been injured so much.

    The fire that burns the brightest, burns the quickest.
     
  4. SamCassell

    SamCassell Contributing Member

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    Pippen33, Azim: you guys hit the nail on the head. It boils down to one thing - ability in the clutch. Game 1, LA this year Cuttino is given the rock with time running out, and gets his shot blocked.

    Game 1, NBA finals, 94 - Hakeem dishes to ET with the game on the line. ET drains the 3, and then the next 4 free throws to ice the W.

    In the playoffs, tie game, closing seconds, you want someone with the cajones to do the job. And Cassell proved he had the big, brass ones to get it done.

    [This message has been edited by SamCassell (edited September 08, 1999).]
     
  5. popeye

    popeye Member

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    Sammy Baby:

    If you want to end the discussion real quick,ask yourself,without any dancing around the subject,who helped their team advance so they could play against .... anybody ... in the playoffs last year.

    And we won't mention how almost any team could have made the Eastern first round last year,if they had even a passable roster.

    ET's upside is he's a great character and was,for a brief,almost unforgettable time,a very talented guard.His dowside is that he is injury prone and has become a one dimensional liability. I find that sad.But it is also accurate.

    He has his days now,but he's not anybody's answer to take them to the next level. Cat just may be ... and possession for possession I would take Cat.
     
  6. Pole

    Pole Contributing Member

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    If I remember correctly, every Rocket choked in that game 3 against the Lakers last year.

    I also remember Cat having some clutch games when two or more of the "big three" were suck'in.

    I LOVE Cassell, and I still miss him sometimes, but I'll take Cat over him any day.

    This is all a moot point though. the Cat is gonna be spanking around a lot of people this year. We won't be having this discussion next year.
     
  7. DREAMer

    DREAMer Member

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    I'll agree that Sammy hit some clutch shots, but would he had to hit those shots if his man wasn't scoring at will?

    Sammy was probably only second to clutchness to Hakeem in 94 and 95, but what else did he do?

    I'm just glad there are some Rocket fans out there who remember the 'real' Sammy and not the 'championship enhanced Cassell'. (Pole, Azim, popeye, etc.) They've gained my respect for not just remembering the good things Sammy did, but his short comings too.

    ------------------
    I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
     
  8. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    Joe Joe,

    "Willis would have come in handy versus LA when Drew and Mirsad Turcan were ineffective."

    You completely lost me with the Turcan reference. You do know that we traded him before last season began?

    As far as that trade you proposed, it wouldn't even come close to working under the cap.
     
  9. SamCassell

    SamCassell Contributing Member

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    I think we may have debated this issue to death. And maybe that's the point. Who's going to be debating whether the new, up-and-coming player is better than Bryce Drew 5 years from now? That speaks something about ET's "legacy".

    But I'm tired of hearing that Cuttino's D is so good, when he was lit up by a mediocre Derek Fisher in the playoffs. He has potential, but until he fills it in the playoffs he isn't even mentioned in the same sentence as Cassell.

    By the way - somebody said that Cassell "used to be good"? Easy to kick a guy when he's down, and Sammy was injured all of last year. But the year before that (97-98), he averaged 20 points and 8 assists. Very good #s, by anyone's standards, close to all-star caliber #s in fact, on a team that made the playoffs. Wait until a player gets healthy again, before deciding he's washed up.
     
  10. popeye

    popeye Member

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    "used to be good":

    Well Hakeem was a much better player than he is now. So I guess we shouldn't compare him to Shaq or Zo,cause they are the peak of the careers? Maybe we shouldn't "kick him while he's down",and not refer to him at all.

    Paalleeeeaase! If you want to make your point that Cassell was a great player make it. Several here have agreed he was. If you want to say he is better right now than Cat,or argue that Cat had less impact than Cassell last year you are going to get a lot of people arguing with you on that.

    So don't fall back on "well he was injured", well guess what .... Cat wasn't and played better than ET last year,what is your point?

    Don't say four years ago Sammy was in a championship series with a very talented team,cause guess what ... Cat wasn't in the NBA then,so what is your point?

    Right Now,Today.If you had to choose between Sammy in his fragile state or take Cat,who would you choose? There is no question that Mobley is the Man.Cassell doesn't play the way he used to.But,neither do I.

    Heck,I'd take Bob Cousy over both of them in a heart beat,but guess what,Bob doesn't play ProBall anymore. So what would the point of that argument anyway?

    Are either of them as good as the Cruisin' Cous-man? That would be a great discussion.I have my views.I would not,however,start lamenting that you're picking on him and "kicking him when he was down" because Bob is in his 60's and couldn't run as fast as the younger,more healthy,more athletic. Now when Sammy gets back his 1995 game,and Bob gets younger we will discuss the merits of comparison.Meanwhile,Sam is not as good as Cat.
     
  11. SamCassell

    SamCassell Contributing Member

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    Spinach man,

    Your comparisons to Couusy are misplaced and self-defeating. Cousy is 60+ years old. And will never play again. Sammy isnt even 30, and there is no reason to think that he couldn't regain his "old" form after he recovers from his injuries.

    Let's look at Hakeem, who you also used for comparison. He had a poor season, in 97-98. But he bounced back last year, not to his prime, but to post a very respectable season. And Hakeem, at 37, is FAR older than Sammy.

    Compare also MJ. He was injured, his second season (85/86). Missed almost the entire season. Now, its true that Sleepy Floyd had a better year that season. But MJ seemed to recover well enough, and put together a decent career.

    Let's go for maybe the closest comparison. Terrell Brandon is the same age as Cassell. Has had a similar career, too, and in fact they were included in the same 3-way trade. Now, Brandon missed a good chunk of the 97/98 season with nagging-type injuries. But he seems to be fine now, and in fact Minnesota just inked him to a long-term contract I believe.

    And please, don't give me the "Sammy was good 4 years ago" argument. As indicated in my last post, Cassell posted good #s last in 97/98. That is, he was posting good stats maybe 17 months ago! That's 17 months, not 4 years. He's not 60 or even 37, he's 29. No reason to assume he can't be productive, again. I don't know how old you are, but let me tell you that 29 isn't old. Even for a NBA player.
     
  12. popeye

    popeye Member

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    Sammy Boy:

    I just read my last post and then I read yours again. Then I read both. Again.

    You (I think), were trying to make the point that Sam Cassell is a better guard than Cat Mobley.That given your choice, you would pick Cassell over Mobley.

    That was countered by several people that ... No Cat is better than Sam .... because Sammy hasn't done anything lately, while Cat has, in the only 50 games of his career, showed great potential, good flash, scorability, court smarts,and started every game,etc....


    You countered me with ... Sam has great upside because others have had injuries and recovered.

    Briefly, I will just say that Mobley has no injuries now,does not need to recover from any nagging perennial health problems,is faster and will be producing even better numbers while our friend Sam is healing and in limited duty this season. Cat also has the better upside of both these guys and IMO a more all around scoring threat in comparison of thier first 50 games in the NBA.

    You further stated ... Yeah,but Sammy was da man in previous years, and started spouting his past stats, etc....

    I countered this with as blatant a past performance as came to mind ... Bob Cousy. He is a HOF and posted some great numdbers in his day.As you astutely pointed out using historic games, past stats, past accomplishments, etc... to compare players is "self defeating" and "misplaced". I agree. That is exactly what I was saying to you. All of Sammy's accomplishments with the Rockets & Nets have nothing to do with what he is capable of doing today.

    Same as Bob Cousy. Would you rather have Cousy with all those great stats, championship rings, etc... or Cat Mobley. Mmmmm,those 60 year old legs would probably slow down in the second quarter. [​IMG]

    Today a great little player named Sam Cassell who used to light up the court and had some superb stuff is injury-prone and has lost more than a few steps.

    Today that same Sam Cassell was compared on this BBS to a new sparking, fiesty, eager, ET-when-he-was-a -Rocket-look-a-like, with as much promise as Cassell and maybe more .... and what happened .... I and others came to the conclusion that ......


    ...... Today Cat Mobley is a better player than Cassell.


    ...... Today we would pick Cuttino Mobley over Sam Cassell, without blinking an eye, or any second guessing.

    Because: Cat is better than ET.


    Cheers. [​IMG]


    PPS: "How Old ?" My kids think I'm old but then anyone over 16,is old to them.




    [This message has been edited by popeye (edited September 09, 1999).]
     
  13. SamCassell

    SamCassell Contributing Member

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    Sailor man,

    Best way to end this debate, I think, is an agreement to disagree. I haven't heard anyone say that Cassell wasn't a very good player, as recently as 97/98. So I can guess that we agree on that. And we both agree that, last season, Mobley definitely contributed more to his team. The disagreement seems to be over whether we will see the Cassell of 93/94 to 97/98 again, or if instead the hollow shell that barely played last season is the player he will be for the rest of his career. Who knows? The coming season will prove one of us right.

    My view is that ET will be fine, will recover from his injuries, and resume what had been a productive NBA career. Hopefully with a winning team. But, if not, let me say that I doubt that we win the first title without "Smilin' Sam", maybe not the second either. And when we got Barkley, I for one was disappointed to lose a player I felt could have beenn a cornerstone of this franchise for years to come.

    All that said, to get back to the original debate/comparison I truly hope that Mobley can help us to a couple of titles, as well. He showed some definite flashes last season of being a contributor, and I liked his all-around game more than, say our other rookies like Dickerson and Drew. I just think that at times we are too quick to annoint a rookie as a future star, and too quick to downgrade a veteran to "over the hill".

    To finish the thought, there are really 2 questions. (1) Would you rather have the Cassell of 94-98 or Mobley of last season?
    (2) Would you rather have Cassell of last season, or Mobley? The answer to #2 is, no. Who wouldn't prefer a healthy player to an injured one? But the answer to #1, for myself and a number of others, is a definitive YES.

    Maybe I'm just old school. [​IMG]
     
  14. popeye

    popeye Member

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    SammyC:

    All your points taken well.I edited my last post which addressed those questions,but I deleted some of it and will put it here in answer to your questions.

    Question: Would I like to have Sam back with the Rockets?

    Answer: In a heartbeat.As a matter of fact as a backup here,he would produce great pts/min stats, and prolong his career. Where he is,he will spend a mediocre year,in and out of the IR.

    Question: Will he recover from such an unhealthy year?

    Answer: Dang I hope so.But I fear he will be pushed(either by himself or the team) to produce at a level that is not attainable with the level of players they have on that team.He will spend considerable time on the IR this coming season.

    Question: Who is better: Cassell with 50 Games in 94-98 or Mobley with 50 Games in '98?

    Answer: There is the quinessential question.That is where we differ I think. I personally see more upside in Mobley.He has more control(I know, mentioning Mobley and control in the same breath is almost physically impossible,but remember ET's mental mistakes and TO's in key situations in the first 50 or so games),more slash for the cash,more than just a step faster, and overall Mobley may be more coachable. Their hands are about the same.Mobley has a better passing ability and they may be equal in how much they see their teammates. Sorry I have never been a Mobley!Mobley!Rah! Rah! Rah! kinda fan.But I was a Rah!Rah!Rah! ET fan. But Mobley,Ifeel,is better than Cassell right out of the box.
     
  15. thacabbage

    thacabbage Contributing Member

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    Lets just settle this once and for all!! Matt Maloney is better than both of them!!...there.
     
  16. IROC it

    IROC it Contributing Member

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    I doubt any of this will happen... not slammin' anyone here but, consider the sources.

    ------------------
    "...customary fat joke in here at the BBS..." -Azim

    What have we become?:eek:
     
  17. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    IROCit, are you referring to Popeye, the man who called the Francis trade a few weeks before it happened?
     
  18. popeye

    popeye Member

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    Rocketman:

    Thanks for getting my back on that but,if ya'll are talking about the original post in this long thread ..... I never predicted anything.

    I was asked by a source that is very reliable if I knew anything more on a proposed trade talk. Apparently, it involved McGrady and Christie for a "bunch" of Rockets.Other than finding out that the Rockets sent some low level guys (Not Dawson,Rudy,etc,,,) to Toronto last week, and that faxes and phones from the Rockets have been ringing in Raptorland,I have not been able to find out anything else since. Nada. Nyet.

    I still feel that something spectacular is going on, and I hope it is a McGrady/Christie deal for anyone except Hakeem,Barkley,Francis,Mobley.[ It is unlikely it involves Pippen,but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. ] If it means giving up Drew,McLean,Maloney,and a pick which is the most hopeful scenario, we should all be ecstatic.

    IROCit:

    What exactly do you mean by "consider the sources"?

    [This message has been edited by popeye (edited September 09, 1999).]
     
  19. IROC it

    IROC it Contributing Member

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    Not you persay, popeye... just that is sure seems a little "he say, she say" at this point. I'm not doubting your ability to accurately quote your sources... but you yourself even said something to the effect of not toatlly trusting the one of those sources point's of view.

    I'm just saying it sounds too iffy, so consider the sources. We don't know them like you do, so if you trust them, then I guess maybe I spoke too soon. Honestly, I didn't mean I don't trust you... but maybe your sources are too shady for me to believe... as for now. And to agree with some- I just don't see it. Who do we have to give up? Maloney or Bullard? Nah, can't be!!

    I guess I just need to follow more people in the mall with cell phones. [​IMG]

    Hey Azim, this is not to slam you... it's just a statement of the "state of the BBS" as I see it... and we've all been guilty. [​IMG]

    ------------------
    "...customary fat joke in here at the BBS..." -Azim

    What have we become?:eek:
     
  20. popeye

    popeye Member

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    I got your point IROC,but for the record, I never doubted the source on this.he is 100% reliable.

    I did however,question the ability of the Rockets and the Raptors to get it done. I thought there wasn't enough meat in it for the Raptors. I didn't think the Rockets were that lucky.I also thought the Rockets had gone out on a limb when they said they would not trade Pippen last week. Maybe that was a message to some suitors,including the Raptors insisting on Pippen.Although how they would get him under their cap is strange.

    But as far as any "sources" I have:

    I am no great shakes of an inside "in the know" guy,with "deep throat" sources around every corner. I do have some special people who I have known for years (some for several years)who are pro sports people and sports medical people, because that is the business I was in at one time.I am presently a medical investigator and travel,so I see some of them a lot.

    Anytime I quote a story or relay some info,or post something I qualify it. It is "something I heard,but I cannot confirm",or "this is from a really reliable source", or " I don't know this person at all,but this is what he says, and I don't know about any of this....",or "this is what bsktball.com is saying,but it sounds like hogwash to me", or " I feel this will happen,but jsut as likely it will....", etc...

    Anyway,time to go home and have a beer.



    [This message has been edited by popeye (edited September 09, 1999).]
     
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