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The Art of Unfair Trading.

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by _Numberfifty, Dec 20, 2014.

  1. _Numberfifty

    _Numberfifty Member

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    Hi,

    All of you might not know me, since I'm rather new to ClutchFans.

    But I am scared that there might be a developing trend in the NBA these days due to teams' urges to own "Big 3's".

    I totally get why this appealing to both organizations, and the league as a whole. For example think of ticketsales, merchandising and global exposure to go along with these.

    But it just seems more and more unfair trades are taking place in the league, and the league is doing very little to even the playing field.

    We've seen this before with [for example] the Lakers getting Pau Gasol for Chris Mihm. And granted teams should be allowed to trade their superstars for absolute garbage whenever they feel the desire to do so.

    And we're seeing it again this season. This trend already started in the offseason where we saw bogus moves like the Tyson Chandler trade back to Dallas. Where all Dallas had to give up was Samuel Dalembert, Jose Calderon and Shane Larkin.

    To receive Raymond Felton and Tyson Chandler in return?

    I know Raymond Felton isnt the most appreciated player on these forums, but add age and talent to the equation and he's more valuable than Larkin and Calderon combined.

    To me the same goes for Tyson Chandler, his value is just skyrocketing above likes that is Samuel Dalembert and Wayne Ellington combined.

    Granted these players couldve been contributors in NY and with players like Carmelo and Stoudemire around. There was no guarantee that the Knickerbockers would deflate the way they did.

    But taking a talent like Rondo, from the Celtics means you're taking it to far.

    Aside from the fact that youre a power house and Rondo probably'd love to play for your team. The Celtics are flatter then the days when they had Marc Blount around.

    Which actually should be a crime.

    Because you're not only hurting a weak team, you're igniting a strong team to bully the league. Of course there will always be teams who are powerhouses in professional sports. And its not like I'm opposed to it.

    It just seems unfair to hand a contender an Allstar, while robbing a franchise of any hope of attracting free agents.

    In my opinion this breaks the competitive spirit for most teams in the league and it makes the playoff runs more predictable because you're either a powerhouse or a bottom-dweller.

    Also I believe the same can be said about the Brewer trade, gotta love it and I cant wait to see him in a Rockets uniform.

    But if you think about it, its just not fair...

    Well this concludes my first ever topic, let me know what you guys think?

    Lots-O'-Love;
    #50
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. what

    what Member

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    The lakers gave up: javaris crittenton, 2 number 1s, and Marc Gasol, Expiring Contract (Kwame' Brown) for Pau Gasol.

    This turned into: Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph (cap space from expiring contract), Darrell Arthur, Grevis Vasquez. The grizzlies flipped Arthur for Kosta Koufos, and Vasquez for Quincy Pondexter.

    The Pau trade is the gift that keeps on giving.
     
  3. _Numberfifty

    _Numberfifty Member

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    Which is absolutely marvelous that it turned out the way it did.

    But trade like that doesnt always pan out that well, there was no way of knowing that
    Marc Gasol would turn out to be an allstar of his own. Especially since alot of Euro studs
    who are stars in their respective leagues make the jump but dont quite make it across the
    Atlantic. Pau had established himself already.

    And to me its hard seeing Memphis counting on signing the then extremely inpredictable
    '07-08 Zach Randolph.

    Their future was a gamble. Which luckily for them panned out just fine.

    Since just a Rudy Gay in my opinion wasnt going to attract alot of free agents, keep in
    mind that Memphis was probably one of the worst places to be as a player aiming for a
    place in history.

    Which allstar in his right mind would sign with a team that has no help, and no future?

    Also the Lakers at that point in time we're not a big contender. The Mavericks are, maybe
    I shouldve set a different example ...

    #50
     
  4. Aleron

    Aleron Contributing Member

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    a few things, tyson chandler's value isnt going up, you're trading player contracts, more than trading players, he's an expiring.

    Felton? umm...what? that he has that player option is what makes him so toxic, heck he might not even play a game this year...or next

    As for Rondo, losing games is Boston's best hope, and honestly given what the offers for Rondo were (jack and ****), I don't think the league has much hope of him returning to form.
     
  5. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    You think Danny ainge purposely hurt the celtics while giving Dallas a huge. Favor?

    Same with phil
     
  6. baubo

    baubo Member

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    There is no such thing as unfair trading. Leaving aside idiotic GMs (Isaih Thomas, KAHN!, etc.), the reason why there are seemingly unfair trades is simply because different teams want different things. Minnesota wants to develop their youngsters and save salary. Boston wants to trade Rondo or he leaves for nothing. NY wanted to get rid of Chandler because he and Melo didn't get along. You can think the Knicks stupid for catering to Melo, but it's not like the alternative of Melo leaving makes then somehow better.

    I remember when the Harden trade was made, many, many OKC fans loved the trade. They called Presti a genius for flipping, at the time, just their 4th best player who's too selfish by asking for max, for a motherload of picks and in their minds, a slightly lesser 6th man in KMart. Again, different circumstances and different wants leading to the trade. And in general, that's how all trades are made. Trades are never unfair, only circumstances. In OKC's case, the circumstances that their owner is a cheapskate.
     
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  7. smoothie

    smoothie Contributing Member
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    you just torpedoed your own argument.

    you have to understand that talent isn't the only way to judge if a trade is fair or not. consider the needs of both teams on and off the court.

    the celtics needed to trade rondo or lose him for nothing this summer. everyone knew it and no one offered more than the mavs. ainge took the best deal on the table. and who's to say that's not a fair trade? if ainge called all 29 teams and said make your best offer, and the mavs offer was the best, isn't that fair market value by definition?

    the brewer trade is lopsided from an on-court perspective. but consider all the factors:

    1) financial - this trade financially benefits the wolves by cutting costs of a losing team in a small market. this probably makes it much easier for them to turn a profit (or come close) given those conditions.

    2) asset management - it also gives them 3 assets (TPE equal to brewers salary minus daniels' salary + a second round pick + daniels) for one asset (brewer).

    3) player development - young guys like muhammad, wiggins, and lavine will get more playing time without brewer around.

    now consider the benefits for the rockets:

    1) on court production

    2) veteran leadership

    3) large contract that can be flipped for a higher priced player at the deadline.

    this is a pretty even trade from both sides.

    you have to remember that there are a lot of deciding factors that go into why teams choose to make a trade, and they aren't all on court production. financial is a BIG one, asset management, future development, and market value all have to be weighed against on court production.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. MONON

    MONON Member
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    I don't think the NBA'll do anything about it, since they did the same thing when they owned the NO club.
     
  9. Junkyard Dog

    Junkyard Dog Member

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    First off welcome to THE BEST sports fan forum on the internet! Secondly, I do agree with you to a point. I think scenarios like these can not be avoided however while we reward our teams for tanking via the Draft lottery and also allowing teams with worse records in the playoffs. I really don't think there is a way to fix the Draft lottery situation, however I would love to see only THE BEST teams in the playoffs. IOW, The 16 teams with the best record should be allowed in the playoffs. Then maybe the teams based off of record at that point that don't make it into the playoffs get picks based off of their record alone. In the end, I still really can't think of a way to avoid these types of situations. Maybe if it gets way too lopsided the league eventually forces a re-draft of all the players that way everyone has a shot at competing. But stuff like that usually only works in video games.
     
  10. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Contributing Member

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    I'm sorry but I am glad you are not the GM of our team.

    btw, welcome to clutchfans~

    edit: need to elaborate a bit to not sound too rude.

    Pau Gasol trade was a rebuilding move by Grizzlies and look where they are now.

    Tyson Chandler was on the way down and came back from an injury, and Raymond Felton better than more valuable than Larkin and Calderon combined? I disagree. Given both are bad at D, Calderon is much better offensive player than Felton.

    Rondo? He just came back from a major injury on a contract year where Boston knows he won't re-sign. The market is only teams think Rondo will re-sign and have the cap space for him. I thought Mavs gave up a lot for him. Rondo is shooting 40% field and 30% on 3s. Welcome to the west, Rondo, let's see what you can do now.
     
    #10 AvgJoe, Dec 20, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2014
  11. RoxBeliever

    RoxBeliever Member

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    The salary cap is the great leveler, my friend.

    So DAL signed Rondo ($12M) in addition to Parsons ($15M). They had to force Dirk to take a discount. Ellis will want the max too. Who can they get for their bench. It all evens out in the end.

    The NBA was never a totally fair battleground. The big markets attracted all the stars. Didn't we rail against it also until we hit the jackpot in Harden? The result of the "unfairness" was teams had to get smarter to overcome the natural advantage of the big-market teams. Smart GMs and FOs could build great teams. When the Spurs started winning, other teams followed their model. So now, look at the LA and NY franchises. CHI is trying to get back on top, but the balance of power in the NBA is shifting again.

    Hopefully HOU can take advantage by being smart, good and lucky.
     
  12. megastahr

    megastahr Contributing Member

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    I will agree with the General message. There probably should be some sort of trade veto power to force teams to make equal trades.

    It is prob the single biggest reason there is no competive balance right now.

    Just look at the west:
    Rockets - harden (uneven trade )
    Warriors - iggy (bought cap space to sign seemed ridiculous at the time) David lee (exact same thing)
    Clippers - handed Chris Paul (this one was a league of it's own)
    Grizz - (handed Randolph )
     
  13. _Numberfifty

    _Numberfifty Member

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    But if Rondo is an expiring contract.

    And they were not winning alot of games.

    Then tell me, whats the use of trading for an aging Jameer Nelson?
    Who would add another 3M to the books next season?
    If you're rebuiliding wouldnt you rather have all the salarycap you could get?
    I mean it sucks to see a guy leave through free agency,
    But this would leave them with more capspace then adding the players they have...

    No one is gonna be able to come to see Rondo play anymore
    [not sure how many people would].

    But Rondo was their only must see player ... [for as far as people came]

    Ticketsales will decrease, so whats the use of this so called trading expiring players
    If you're not getting anything but a decrease in capspace?

    Thats whats bothering me.

    I do like all your arguments, they're rather eye opening.

    PS; I'd make a wonderfull GM :p @AvgJoe

    #50
     
  14. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Contributing Member

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    Harden trade at the time seemed fair. Few had thought Harden was that good once he got his team. Dare I say Morey may not have predicted that. General consensus was Harden needed couple of years to become that dominant.
     
  15. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Contributing Member

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    They had to take something back. If they just take Mav's first rounder that is plain murder and salary needs to match too. I think Nelson can be a great vet leader to a young team and they are tanking. Big agents are in 2016, not too many next year. They don't have to care about cap space next year, but they can flip Nelson's expiry next year to get another pick or something. Accumulating assets now is a better approach, they are aiming for 2016.

    PS I am sticking with my comment on your GM qualifications. :p
     
  16. _Numberfifty

    _Numberfifty Member

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    I know that in a trading situation there is a need for an equal salary.

    But was there a necessity to trade Rondo?
    Rather then let his contract expire / gain the extra 3M.
     
  17. The_Yoyo

    The_Yoyo Contributing Member
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    Agree - but I dont think there was a consensus that Harden would be dominant -- I think most agreed he was a really good player but one of those players who could make the all star game a few times in their career but not consistently (someone like Jamal Mashburn - made a few all-star teams but wasnt going to be THE guy)


    while the harden trade now seems lopsided considering he became an all-nba player once he came to houston prior but at the time of trade many consider it was a lot to give up

    The Rockets gave up the expiring contract of Kevin Martin (who was a good bench player for his one year at OKC), a lotto pick in Jeremy Lamb, a future lotto pick (became Steven Adams a good young big man), and a future first round pick.

    So they gave up 3 firsts, one of them being a lotto pick - the other having just been selected as the #12 pick in the draft and a guy who had been a 20ppg scorer his last few seasons in the league.


    Lamb has not developed into the player many though he would be and Martin left after one year so it looks even worse for OKC especially with the success Harden has had individually in houston. Adams more than likely will turn out to be the best player OKC will have received in the trade.
     
  18. nolimitnp

    nolimitnp Contributing Member

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    If Terrence Jones were healthy there's a very high chance Rondo would be a Houston Rocket. There's absolutely nothing wrong with trading an expiring contract mid-season.
     
  19. Zacatecas

    Zacatecas Member

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    Well then this thread should be about competent General Managers!
     
  20. Major

    Major Member

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    Isn't that the whole point of a trade - current stars for potential future stars? It made both teams better. How do you propose trades happen? You can only trade established stars for established stars? Should crappy teams be required to retain their stars until free agency and then lose them for nothing?
     
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