I found this article very interesting to read. http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/topstory/864392 ----------------------- Retiring warden torn over record execution streak By JAMES KIMBERLY HUNTSVILLE -- In just three years as warden of this city's namesake prison, Jim Willett set a remarkable record even by Texas standards. By his Friday retirement, Willett -- a warm, soft-spoken man who is not particularly fond of the death penalty -- had given the signal that started 89 executions. He hated every one of them. "It is an unnatural thing we are doing back there," he said. When the death penalty is debated, little is said about people like Willett who are asked to carry out the court's order. Attention is focused on the family of a murder victim or the condemned. But Willett and the other Texas Department of Criminal Justice employees who must administer the lethal drugs to a convicted killer are, in a way, victims themselves. They are being asked, with ever increasing frequency, to perform "an unnatural thing." Willett's is a story of the toll such requests take on a man. A farm boy from Groesbeck, 40 miles south of Waco, Willett came to Huntsville to study business at Sam Houston State University. He came to the prison system to earn a decent living. He started as a correctional officer at the Huntsville Unit and by the time he graduated from college, he had made sergeant. He leaped the rungs of the ladder, from prison to prison, from lieutenant to captain to major. On paper, the decision to name Willett warden of the Huntsville Unit in May 1998 seemed perfect. Willett was a well-respected administrator with a passion for history and ties to Huntsville. The Walls -- as the Huntsville Unit has been informally known since its massive brick exterior, 15 feet high, was built in 1848 -- was the oldest, most storied unit in the system. "I had wanted to come back here, kind of like going home," he said. But when the job was offered, Willett at first said no. "I did not want to come here because of the executions," he said. "I left the door open. I told my boss, `I don't want it but if I'm the one y'all really want to put over here, I will come and do it and I will do the best I can.' "A few weeks later they called me back and said, `Well, you're the one we want.' " A devout Baptist who openly displays symbols of his faith on his desk, Willett, 51, said it is not his religion that gives him pause in the execution chamber. It is his experience. He is not exactly opposed to the death penalty. "If I pick up the paper tomorrow morning and I see where somebody has abducted, molested and murdered an 8-year-old girl, the first thing that pops in my mind is that guy deserves to die for that," he said. But he can't be called a supporter, either. "There's a part of me that says, `I don't know as a human being that this is right.' " Like many Americans, he is torn between the broad principle of capital punishment and the troubling questions that arise when it is carried out. "Is this the right thing to do?" he asks himself. "You've got a guy who is 28 years old, you think what a waste. Here's a guy who's got everything in front of him, who seems to have cleaned up his life while on death row. It bothers me," he said. He has never been able to put himself in one camp or the other. "Getting me closer to it, I guess as close as you can get, hadn't caused me to decide one way or the other since then either," he said. It was the timing of Willett's tenure that led to his streak of death house visits, unparalleled by any prison warden anywhere since the Supreme Court decided in 1976 that states could resume executions. Texas set a record for executions in a single year in 1998, when 38 men were put to death, and then broke it last year by executing 40. All told, the state executed 92 men and a woman during Willett's tenure. Willett accepted the job on the condition he be allowed to leave the office the days his son played high school baseball, which is where he was during the four executions he did not attend. He also has a 14-year-old daughter. As prison administrator, it is up to Willett to orchestrate the execution. The first thing he does is greet the prisoner when he is transferred from Death Row at the Terrell Unit near Livingston to the Huntsville Death House. Willett uses the time to finalize details, such as how he will know when the inmate is done making a final statement, and to gauge how the inmate will react when the time comes to make the short walk to the adjoining "I.V. room." In the execution chamber, it is on the warden's signal that the lethal flow of three drugs begins. When the executioner signals the flow is completed, Willett summons the physician to officially declare the time of death. Willett participated in the executions because it is his job, and Willett is a man who does his job. "I work for these people and have for so long, I'm very much a company person," he explained. Willett sees his role as just one of many. "Mine's a small portion of a large thing that is happening here," he said. "Some jury found this guy guilty, they have a part in this." To cope with the conflict, the warden writes. In an office partitioned from the master bedroom of his Huntsville home by a half-wall maybe 4 feet high, the warden sits at a Macintosh computer and chronicles what he witnesses on execution days. He spends, at most, maybe 45 minutes with a condemned inmate; but it is 45 minutes with a person who has only 300 minutes left to live. The warden writes about the executions because he knows if he didn't, he would forget them. Consider his first. He remembers its intensity; his heart pounding so fiercely it felt as if it would leap from his chest. He remembers being so afraid that "I might botch the thing," he didn't listen as the inmate spoke his final words. He remembers how excruciatingly slow the second hand of his watch seemed to move as he waited the three minutes from the executioner's signal that the drugs had been administered to summon the physician who would pronounce the time of death. But he cannot tell you the inmate's name. "I can't remember most of them," he admitted. And so he writes to remember. "Upon arriving at Death House cell #7, there stands an older man who looks a little worn, from a rough life, I suspect," he wrote following the March 7 execution of Dennis Dowthitt, Willett's 89th. Dowthitt, 55, of Humble was sentenced to death for the 1990 rape and murder of his son's 16-year-old girlfriend. Dowthitt also had ordered his son to murder the girl's 9-year-old sister. Willett knew nothing about any of this. He never reads about the cases of the people executed on his watch. "I found out early on that I can't go and look at the specifics of that crime and read about the goriness of it and then go back there and deal with him like I feel I have to," he said. On his computer, Willett chronicled the moment he met Dowthitt: "He appears nervous and somewhat leery of me. Dowthitt is eating an egg sandwich. I remembered that he had requested, among other things, a dozen over-easy eggs for his last meal. "Sure enough there is a plate full of fried eggs on the shelf, just to Dowthitt's right. I tell him that I don't think that he can make it through all those eggs if he eats them in sandwiches. Dowthitt tells me that his stomach is nervous and he doesn't think he can eat much anyway." Willett's final execution was particularly poignant. Up until the moment he was strapped to the gurney, Dowthitt had blamed both murders on his son. When the viewing room curtains were opened and Dowthitt found himself face to face with Arthur and Linda Purnhagen, the parents of the murdered children, his chin began to quiver and he was forced to squint back tears. He had given Willett the impression on the way into the execution chamber that he wanted to make a final statement to his sister who was witnessing the execution. When Willett swung the microphone that is suspended from the execution chamber ceiling in front of his face, Dowthitt began to sob. He blurted out, "I am so sorry for what y'all had to go through. I can't imagine losing two children. If I was y'all I would have killed me. You know? I am really so sorry about it, I really am." Dowthitt said goodbye to his sister, then turned back to the Purnhagens. "You had some lovely girls and I am sorry. I don't know what to say." He cried harder. "All right warden, let's do it," he said, as he jerked his head toward the ceiling. Willett, for the last time, signaled to the executioner behind a mirrored window to begin the lethal injection. The flow of drugs began and Dowthitt fell silent. The only sound to be heard was the wails of his sister as Dowthitt's chest heaved against the leather restraints one last time, before falling still. "They don't usually get that emotional," Willett said of the scene. Willett does not keep secret his conflict over executions. At the same time, he doesn't spend a lot of time talking about specific ones. The Texas Department of Criminal Justice offers counseling to all its employees who participate in executions. Willett has never attended. "There are times when I'll go home and talk to my wife about it, but I'd say more often than not that's not so," he said. "I would say we may not discuss this more than five or 10 minutes after I get home. I usually try to get involved in something else to get my mind off it." Usually, that something else is his writing. "It's kind of a way to release all this, kind of get to the end of it," Willett said. Willett, finally, has come to the end of it. He is not sure what comes next. He intends to volunteer at the Texas Prison Museum in Huntsville. He intends to collaborate with a former college roommate -- who has since become a published author -- to turn his execution writings into a book. He intends to work in the yard, noodle on the computer, paint model trains. "I just am going to do things I enjoy for a while," he said. "I might go back to work to do something, anything, to be around people." He is fully aware of his legacy, but not particularly happy about it. He would rather be remembered for the improvements he made to the Walls: immaculately groomed flower beds, walls and railings scraped bare and repainted in close to their original colors. He would like to be recalled for the relationships he had with inmates and with staff. "I think he would like to be known as the warden who really cared about people," said chaplain Jim Brazzil, who has participated in more executions than Willett. "Whenever he dealt with an inmate who was being executed, he always showed compassion. He really cared for the man," Brazzil said. "It wasn't just a job. It wasn't just an execution. It wasn't just a number." ------------ After reading through the religion/abortion threads I thought I'd pose a question to all of the Pro-lifers out there. Are you pro-execution too? Alot of ppl I know that are pro-life also believe in capital punishment and I just find that slightly hypocritical. I say be consistent damnit! Also I have no clue how hard it must be to be a part of 89 executions. I don't know how this guy can sleep after watching a man die. I know I definitely would of had a hard time. ------------------ Houston's Schedule: (40-33) @NJN, Dal, Sea, Atl, @Uth, Den, @Por, @Van, Min Minnesota's Schedule: (42-30) @Por, Por, Pho, LaL, @Van, @LaL, @LaC, Uth, @Hou, @Dal [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited March 31, 2001).]
BGM, We've discussed this topic before... but, what the heck. No. I am anti-abortion and anti-death penalty. I used to be pro-death penalty. But, I came to the conclusion that I don't want our government having the right to say who lives and who dies. There's also the money issue. I've heard where it costs more to execute a prisoner than to keep him in prison the rest of his life. And, there's the issue of killing the wrong person. You just can't correct that mistake. But, aren't many "Pro Choicers" also anti-death penalty? Where's your consistency? I'm not denying that some anti-abortionists are for the death penalty. I'm just pointing out that the other side of the coin is just as hypocritical. ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited March 31, 2001).]
The reason some pro-choicers are anti death penalty is b/c it's debatable on if a fetus is a human being. We do happen to know that ppl on death row are actually human. I can understand that point of view alot better then the pro-lifers that are pro-death penalty. ------------------ Houston's Schedule: (40-33) @NJN, Dal, Sea, Atl, @Uth, Den, @Por, @Van, Min Minnesota's Schedule: (42-30) @Por, Por, Pho, LaL, @Van, @LaL, @LaC, Uth, @Hou, @Dal [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited March 31, 2001).]
BGM, Well, I don't get it. I guess I'm just not the type of person who likes to take risks. I'd rather err on the side of caution with babies (be they human or not, they ARE a life, you cannot argue that it is alive). You can also make the argument that babies are innocent whereas people on death row are guilty of ending someone else's life. So, they therefore deserve to lose their life. That makes more sense to me! I will never understand someone who says, "Save killers and kill babies".... ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited March 31, 2001).]
I am pro-choice and pro-death penalty. On being pro-choice: I support the "morning-after" pill. I have no problem with aborting an embryo. When the embryo becomes an actual fetus, that changes things for me a bit, though I still support abortion. When a fetus reaches a state where it can be born and live, regardless of how premature it might be, then it becomes wong in my mind. On being pro-death penalty: When I started reading that article, I almost had a complete change of heart. Then I read the bold-faced type. I remember reading about that guy, and what he did to those poor girls. He deserved to die, painfully, IMO. I also believe that DNA testing should always be used when it is possible. I hate the thought of putting an innocent man to death, so I believe that all possibilities should be exhausted to ensure guilt. Dowthitt deserved what he got. ------------------ "The idea of a band nowadays is five pretty boys, one with a tattoo, one with a shaved head, and on and on. I mean, I like Britney Spears, I think she's pretty, but I'm not from the Mickey Mouse Club. I'm from the Godzilla club!" ---Ozzy Osbourne
wow, this is another in a string of interesting threads lately. ME, I am prochoice to a near extreme. however I am not sure about death penalty. I think if the legal system were more streamlined and efficient, hell and fair too, than I would be more pro death penalty too. but as it is I am just kinda pro capitol punishment. I think that the jusr that gives a death by lethal execution sentance should be forced to watch the execution, as well as the lawyers that persued it. well maybe not the jurors, but deffinately the lawyers. there are so many reasons why I do not like the death penalty. first the appeals process takes for ever and costs a mint. 2nd the only people on death row are cases that got some press(causing public outrage)(I HATE THE MEDIA). 3rd the people on deathrow also tend to be poor, the rich ones get off on the insanity plea. there is so much more. oh well i dont have time to writ it all down now. i will return later and share ideas with everyone else closer to game time peace ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball www.hanta-force.com
One of the major reasons why i am pro-death is because what happen with the 5 guys in Texas that killed the Sheriff or whatever he was. I don't believe its right for a human to say who lives and who dies, but I do believe that if they continue to pose a threat to society, then something needs to be done. And some of the most dangerous people are the mentally r****ded(criminals). Im not saying to excute them, but if they continue to pose a threat, something needs to be done. ------------------ Nice guys finish last ... and im surely not going to finish last!
I guess I am pro-choice and anti-death penalty...and do not see any contradiction of belief. Pro-Choice - I am personally anti-abortion but pro-choice for the following reasons: 1. Many people (based on religion, science, whatever) feel that abortion is not killing because there is no life. It would take a miracle to change such an opinion...therefore, who am I (or the government) to say they are wrong? 2. Abortions will never stop. There will always be irresponsible, desperate, or other (non-negative) people who want one. It will be done. I would much prefer the option to be safer and regulated. I have the same belief in regards to drugs. 3. I feel that consuming animal products is murder and/or abuse (dairy, egg industry) yet, I do not feel it should be illegal. If I am to be this way in this area, it must carry over similarly to other, similar areas. Anti -death penalty - similar to DREAMer, but also add the racism element, class element, and corruption element. DREAMer, do you find this to be contradictory? Just curious... ------------------ Whitey will pay.
Who the **** says that? For future reference, any argument that looks like it came off the back of a bumper sticker is probably a bad one. Those who are "pro-choice" believe that the fetus in its early stages is not a human life. Not yet. Otherwise they would never be willing to sacrifice it. People who are "pro-life" believe that the fetus becomes a human life from the moment of conception. It's a medical, moral, and spiratual grey area as to when life begins. But there's no doubt as to whether an inmate is alive when he's put into that chair or given the injection. It is entirely feasible for someone who holds human life sacred to be against the barbaric practice of state-run executions, and yet favor a woman's right to choose abortion if they don't believe that a fetus is the same as a living, breathing human being. ------------------ I'm about to boldly go where many men have gone before.
rim, Yes. THERE IS A LIFE! Get that through your (plural) thick skulls. Just because some people want to question whether it is a human life or not, I don't give a damn. I mean, if it isn't a human life, what the hell is it? You cannot dispute whether it is alive or not, otherwise you wouldn't have to friggin' KILL it. Geez... Just because it's someone's opinion (be it religious-based or not) that slavery is okey-dokey, because different races are superior/inferior to others, does that make it okay? Hell friggin' no. Otherwise, I guess you thought it was "okay" to be a daggon Nazi. Beliefs this, and beliefs that. Screw all that. There are basic rights and wrongs. One is killing is not right. Even in my Christian religion we see that killing animals for food or otherwise is not right. But, it is a necessary evil. Before there was sin, there was no death. In the Bible, Adam and Eve (and God) were not "happy" that they now finally got to kill and eat animals, woo hoo. They lost the companionship of animals, and were forced to end the lives of others to continue their own existence. (rimbaud, sorry this rant was not entirely directed at you. I'm just tired of people saying that a fetus is not "alive". It is ridiculous to say that. As I've said before equivocating over whether a fetus is a human life or not is the question. But, human or not, it is alive.) Well, the way I see it, is if someone wants to kill their fetus, go right ahead. But, I don't want it to be legal. People do illegal things all day everyday. I don't care if an abortion is "safe", because it sure as hell isn't safe for the fetus. Would you want something that was basically wrong to be "safer" for the person committing the act? I mean, let's say someone wanted to go around poking all the eyes out of toads. And, let's say that it wasn't illegal (but obviously wrong - not a good thing to do). Should the government supply this person with poking tools and a crew of doctors and guides etc to make his endeavor safer? I mean, people are going to go around poking toad's eyes out anyways, let's not let those people drown or get sick from hanging out in swamps and bayous all day. Heck, why don't we bring the toads to him? Why don't we build "clinics" where people can bring toads and get their eyes poked out in the safety of a government assisted tax-supported way? Also, how do you equate your position on legalization of drugs to the legality of abortion? Abortion is ending the life of another organism. Drugs are a personal choice with effects on one's own person. When any drug (be it legal like alcohol or illegal) causes one person to infringe on the rights and safety of another that is when the law should step in. I guess is someone doesn't see a difference between humans and other animals they might have this sort of belief. But, then again in that fairytale world we could prosecute all carnivores (Lions, tigers, and bears oh my). It is just plain common sense. Other animals eat other animals. We just happen to be at the top of the food chain. I just don't see how this relates to your feelings on abortion. I mean, if the mother's were killing their fetuses to eat them, then maybe I could see the connection.... Those are more good reasons against the death penalty. ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page
DREAMer, Please don't get so emotional...I like calm, peaceful argumentation. On: THERE IS A LIFE! Get that through your (plural) thick skulls. Just because some people want to question whether it is a human life or not, I don't give a damn. I mean, if it isn't a human life, what the hell is it? You cannot dispute whether it is alive or not, otherwise you wouldn't have to friggin' KILL it. Geez... My mistake, I meant "human" life. Cancerous cells are also living, as are bacteria, etc. An embryo or fetus gains complexity over time...but most pro-choicers will draw a line and say "it is not a human life up to here." Scientists will claim a certain thing...who am I to feel superior? Most pro-choicers would not say an abortion kills a baby...they would say it removes an embryo or fetus or whatever. I do not feel, like others, that it is a human life in those early stages...I would, however, never choose abortion because of potential of me having that offspring. Other people make different choices. Just because it's someone's opinion (be it religious-based or not) that slavery is okey-dokey, because different races are superior/inferior to others, does that make it okay? Hell friggin' no. Otherwise, I guess you thought it was "okay" to be a daggon Nazi. Morality is relative...ther are not absolutes. In Nazi Germany, slavery would have been preferable to the Holocaust. By some religious accounts you are evil by eating a cow. Other than that, I cannot answer this as it is not relevant to my position. No offense, but your frog analogy is poor. Sure, it happens now and nothing ill ever be done by it, but poking a fros eye out cannot lead to death. In illegal, blackmarket abortions, there is a high risk to the mother. Why increase the risk of death? The drug thing was just a correlation...an aside...not pertinent except to show that people will always do it...no matter if it is legal or illegal. Legality reduces extra hazards. I guess is someone doesn't see a difference between humans and other animals they might have this sort of belief. But, then again in that fairytale world we could prosecute all carnivores (Lions, tigers, and bears oh my). It is just plain common sense. Other animals eat other animals. We just happen to be at the top of the food chain. I just don't see how this relates to your feelings on abortion. I mean, if the mother's were killing their fetuses to eat them, then maybe I could see the connection.... Quite simple, I see you eating meat as unneccesary killing and cruel. I can play on your emotions or point to science to attempt to show you why it is wrong and even bad for you. Why do you put the life of a pig below a fetus? Obviously, eating meat is right for you...therefore, I will not complain. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
Are you talking about the Texas prison escapees who killed Aubrey Hawkins, the Irving Police Officer, in December? ------------------ Houston Sports Board
Oh yeah... How does any of that show a contradiction with my anti-death penalty stance (which is due to my distrust of the system)? That was the original statement. All you did was tell me I was wrong about my abortion stance. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
so GWB has released has biography ------------------ "Repression never did me any harm (I finally ceased to include "stop masturbating" as one of my guilt ridden New Year's resolutions, but that's a different topic)." Achebe - programmer by day, Mrs Palmers Husband by night
rim, I answered your question. You asked if I thought it was contradictory and I said, "Yes". Now, if you would've inserted the word "How" as in "How do you find my opinion contradictory", then I would've had to expound on my answer. Briefly, I think it is contradictory to support the ending of the potential of life, while support the halt to ending the potential of ending more lives (execution of a murderer who may kill again). I also find it contradictory that you are willing to keep killers alive, just because they might be discriminated against, but fetuses are definitely being discriminated against, and you don't seem to have a problem with people killing them. That is a mistake far too many pro-abortionists make. And, it irritates the heck out of me. I cannot in good conscience just let it go without pointing out the difference. Sorry for getting a little riled up. Neither of those (and no other "mass of cells") have the potential to become human. Those, in fact, have the potential to end human (and other) life. But, that is not how the current law works, now is it? Friggin' "partial birth abortions" are even allowed. Would I be happier with a more restrictive abortion policy. Yes, but not as happy as making it illegal except for situations of rape, and serious health concerns for the mother. You have not addressed how I would rather err on the side of caution when dealing with the possibility of human life. Why take that risk? A funny thing just occured to me. That whole "it's not a human life" opinion is the very same opinion that proliferated the African slave trade (and their treatment) and the mass genocide of the indigenous people of the Americas. Hmmm, good opinion, huh? It's the very same opinion at the base of racism in the world today. What do you "feel" it is? Those fetuses don't get a choice. Why should you or anyone else's "choice" override that of the fetus? It is relative, but there has to be a lowest common denominator. A basic building block. So. Not killing Jews would've been "preferable" to both of them. In my own religion, as I've already stated eating animals is evil. All animals, not just 'holy' cows. We eat other animals because of sin. I am evil therefore I eat animals. I am not evil because I eat animals. In the Hindu religion, do they feel that wolves who eat cows are evil too? I stated how poking frog's eyes out could lead to death. A person could drown or catch malaria or some other illness from stomping around in swamps and bayous all day. Or they could get bitten by a poisonous snake. That's why I said it would be safer for them to have a nice clean sterile clinic to perform their poking. This is an easy one -- Because abortion is wrong. Pregnancy is ONLY the consequence of sex. Death from illegal 'high-risk' abortions, is merely a (possible) consequence of killing one's fetus. "Whaaaaaa, I don't like the consequence of having sex." "Whaaaaaa, I don't like the consequence of having an abortion." Take responsibility of your own actions, suck it up! You seem to be muddling the differences between "right" and "legal", and "wrong" and "illegal". I cannot say with much assuredness whether doing drugs is wrong. Therefore, I don't support the illegality of them. I can say with the utmost belief that abortion is wrong. Therefore, I can strongly support the illegality of it. All this philosophical BS, about no 'right or wrong', is just that, BS. You, yourself, say killing animals is wrong, then why isn't killing fetuses? And, if it's wrong, and especially if it involves a human life, then why shouldn't it be illegal? All animals prefer to defend their own. Are there any animals that are solely cannibalistic? Slavery is, was, and always will be wrong. It was legal at one time. Abortion is, was, and always will be wrong. It was illegal at one time. Do you see the same thing when a cat catches kills and eats a mouse? I am against animal cruelty. I am against senseless killing of animals. But, when a human kills another animal to supply food, it is no different than a spider eating a fly. Because I eat pigs. Why do Lions put gazelles below that of, say, an elephant. Because, a lion can't kill an elephant. As I said, we are atop the food chain. It is nature. We are carnivores (omnivores). We have our eyes in the front of our faces just like nearly all predators. Yes, there are some predators that have eyes on either side of their head, but how many animals with their eyes on the same side (in front) of their head can you name that aren't at least omnivores? Not many. We also have canine teeth. No, we don't have huge fangs, but they're there, and there's no disputing it. We were made to hunt and eat meat (and anything else we could stomach). I don't have a problem at all with someone's decision to be any level of vegetarian. It's strange to me. But, it has no bearing on my (or anyone else's, except maybe the meat industry) life. I'm not sure if you've read my essay on abortion. If you haven't please do, and let me know what you think of the many arguments I present. The link is below. Why Should Abortion Be Illegal? ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page
DREAMer, Briefly: All this philosophical BS, about no 'right or wrong', is just that, BS. You, yourself, say killing animals is wrong, then why isn't killing fetuses? And, if it's wrong, and especially if it involves a human life, then why shouldn't it be illegal? I do think that, in the long run, extracting fetuses is wrong...same as I do about killing and abusing animals -- as I said before. I "feel" that a fetus in the early stages is an organism that has the potential for life -- as I said before. I will not get into the animal stuff...it should have no bearingon this thread...if you are genuinely interested, email me and I will giva a little. To anti-death penalty...just because I do not think someone should be killed does not mean I am allowing said person to go on killing. There are other preventative measures. To sum up in a more cohesive manner...I am an anti-abortion, pro-choice, anti-death penalty, animal friendly, anarchist, artist, academic, white-inferiorist, heterosexual, race-mixing, basketball lover. Sure, I walk a tenuous line with my views...who doesn't? Life is a cantradiction and I am no exception. I am 100% fallable and have full confidence in my thoughts, yet I still do not fully trust them (ha ha). In my mind, I draw a line between things such as slavery and holocaust with early abortions (notice I am exclusive in such wording - contradiction?). I have a very messed up mind - chalk it up to that! I just do not think life always works out black and white...I do not know every situation that may arise...every scientific discovery, every person's heart. Abortion debate has been turned into a circus that is really tiring. It is political, it is religious...it is multi-functional. Anyway, I will read your essay but not comment on it here, it would just be a waste of Clutch's wonderful server, and an annoyance to anyone who clicked on this thread. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
DREAMer, Briefly: All this philosophical BS, about no 'right or wrong', is just that, BS. You, yourself, say killing animals is wrong, then why isn't killing fetuses? And, if it's wrong, and especially if it involves a human life, then why shouldn't it be illegal? I do think that, in the long run, extracting fetuses is wrong...same as I do about killing and abusing animals -- as I said before. I "feel" that a fetus in the early stages is an organism that has the potential for life -- as I said before. I will not get into the animal stuff...it should have no bearingon this thread...if you are genuinely interested, email me and I will giva a little. To anti-death penalty...just because I do not think someone should be killed does not mean I am allowing said person to go on killing. There are other preventative measures. To sum up in a more cohesive manner...I am an anti-abortion, pro-choice, anti-death penalty, animal friendly, anarchist, artist, academic, white-inferiorist, heterosexual, race-mixing, basketball lover. Sure, I walk a tenuous line with my views...who doesn't? Life is a cantradiction and I am no exception. I am 100% fallable and have full confidence in my thoughts, yet I still do not fully trust them (ha ha). In my mind, I draw a line between things such as slavery and holocaust with early abortions (notice I am exclusive in such wording - contradiction?). I have a very messed up mind - chalk it up to that! I just do not think life always works out black and white...I do not know every situation that may arise...every scientific discovery, every person's heart. Abortion debate has been turned into a circus that is really tiring. It is political, it is religious...it is multi-functional. Anyway, I will read your essay but not comment on it here, it would just be a waste of Clutch's wonderful server, and an annoyance to anyone who clicked on this thread. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
rim, We have a lot more in common than you'd think. anti-abortion = 95% (rape, health) pro-choice = 80% (unless it infringes on others. 5% if talking about abortion.) anti-death penalty = 90% animal friendly = 98% (dunno, some are mean) anarchist = 20% (Too much control is a bad thing) artist = 75% (Used to be more) academic = 75% (intelligent enough to question what's taught) white-inferiorist (Not sure what this means) heterosexual = 100% race-mixing = 90% (I also like individuality) basketball lover = 90% (Some of the NBA pisses me off) ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page
I'm not going to get into the semantics of this argument. We've been over it time and time again and nobody's opinions are going to be changed. I'd rather spend my time & energy on something a little more constructive. I will say this however: I hope that warden writes and publishes a book based on his death row writings. I think it would make fascinating reading. ------------------ "Blues is a Healer" --John Lee Hooker
