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Stimulus Debate in the time of Corona

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by justtxyank, Mar 17, 2020.

  1. joshuaao

    joshuaao Member

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    I agree that removing the SALT caps altogether would be regressive. I agree that we need to invest significant resources to help service industry workers. I also believe that middle-class families could use some assistance. I don't see this as an either/or proposition. You can pass another stimulus bill and also change the SALT caps.

    150k in Houston goes miles further than in California, especially when you have a family to support.
     
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  2. ipaman

    ipaman Contributing Member

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    Per the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation, approx. 40 billion out of 77 billion of "relief" funds would land in the pockets of Americans earning $1 million a year. Over half!!!, that's a joke and pisses me off! I'm telling you this is Pelosi's rich donors from high tax states, don't be fooled.
     
  3. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Link?
     
  4. Astrodome

    Astrodome Member

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    I would like that only because of the amount of taxes i have paid in the past few years. It doesnt seem ideal that people in my tax bracket get nothing but it is what it is. Should people who have paid <10k the last 3 years to the government get a check while people who have given 100k+ get shut out? I guess....
     
  5. ipaman

    ipaman Contributing Member

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  6. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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  7. B-Bob

    B-Bob my celli weighs a ton

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    and never mind burning carbon for no reason. Amazing.
     
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  8. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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  9. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    We removed 10 million people from employment in 3 weeks. The stimulus needs to be tripled. They are not going back to getting jobs in the summer. Worrying about payments being to high for our artificially low minimum wage (that ends up being state subsidized anyway) looks insanely quaint and ridiculous. This is the Greatest Depression.

    Also have to send a trillion to state and local govs based on size. The federal government utterly failed them here on multiple levels

    Do it now. The longer it lasts the more help we will need.
     
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  10. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    Banks warn of chaotic launch of small business lending program
    They're concerned that the expectations the administration has publicly set are unrealistic.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/02/banks-small-business-lending-program-launch-161106
     
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  11. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Wait, what? You mean that Trump putting one of these people in charge of the Small Business Administration for the last 3 years was a suboptimal decision?

    [​IMG]

    THAT WE ARE ALL GOING TO HAVE TO PAY A ****ING PRICE FOR?
     
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  12. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    the wrasslin' lady isn't at the SBA anymore. She left last April, then an acting happened before being replaced with this person...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovita_Carranza
     
  13. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    I know, it's even worse than you think.

    These government agencies exist to serve the public, not to reward your friends and be destroyed from within. Now it's time for them to serve, and Trump has ravaged them all. Sick and sad, and exactly what we warned of 4 years ago. All the folks who voted for Trump or didn't vote for HIllary out of some "burn it down" ethos shoudl be excited as they watch "it" burn down and us, who are part of "it" , burn as well.
     
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  14. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    Been thinking the same thing myself .... That $1200 wasn't near enough and too much of it went to businesses who aren't losing any money if they are shut down - they just aren't making any money.

    If a plane isn't flying .... it isn't using fuel or manpower. Its idle.

    Money should be going to people not corporations.
     
  15. Major

    Major Member

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    What exactly needs to be done *right now* for the poor? If you were making $15/hr and got laid off, you're now making $22.50/hr, getting an extra $1200 in a few weeks (equivalent of another $7.50/hr for 4 weeks), have deferrals in rent/utilities/student loans/etc, and have lower-than-usual expenses because you're staying home rather than going out (no gas costs, less food costs, etc). Anyone who was making about $30/hr or less has more income being unemployed than not. What exactly is the immediate new emergency these people are in that needs more stimulus?

    There are broad future problems coming up depending on how long this goes, and many other current immediate problems within individual sectors - government, businesses of all sizes, lower-class people getting paid the same but now working more dangerous jobs, etc have immediate issues. But most of the 10 million people who filed for unemployment are actually in pretty decent situations for the next several months - most are better off than they were a month ago.

    This is an entirely uncharted situation - and making economic decisions for 4 months from now is stupid when (a) it's impossible to predict and (b) there's no need. Address the immediately month or two, and then wait more data before addressing the longer term. Making long-term decisions without good information is how we end up with stupid government policy.
     
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  16. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Right now - the X millions of the 10 million people who just lost access to employer provided health insurance need to be allowed onto the exchanges. Like literally right now, this second. Trump administration blocked this, becuase they are evil and stupid and want people to die, i guess?

    Second, the overall assumption that it's just a bunch of low wage earners getting thrown on to UI lines is going to look very quaint this time next month. Everybody is going to get hurt here. Like, sure, Amazon is doing well compared to retail chains...today. Except, who the **** is going to be buying retail items or web services when the economy is in a massive, insane contraction? Nobody. The cruise directors may be the ones being hurt now but the marketing directors are going next. "Learn to Code" is not going to save you either. So, right now, you have to stop assuming that this is just some normal business cycle event where you can look at a Cato institute paper and figure out what to do.

    Third, RIGHT NOW states and localities need the money. Tewho are not supposed to do global pandemic preparedness, btw, that is a federal government task, need trillions of dollars to pay for the services they are providing to keep everything afloat.


    "Wait and see how bad it gets" is awful advice for both the Pandemic and an economic cataclysm.

    We have good information that this is the worst economic catastrophe of all time. How much do you more do you want to see to avert total collapse? We have already raced past 2008/9 level destruction in about 3 weeks. There is literally no end in sight. We should be as terrified of this as we are of the public health problem.

    That stimulus bill that passed last week? We need to do that at least 3 or 4 more times if we're waiting 18 months for a vaccine.
     
    #356 SamFisher, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
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  17. RayRay10

    RayRay10 Houstonian
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    I agree with the rest of your post, however, just to correct a point: Folks that lose their jobs have 30-60 days to get healthcare on the open market. Losing your job triggers that special enrollment period for you so that you're able to not go without health care.

    The Trump administration is getting a lot of crap for it, but this was probably the right decision based on our current health care system and our economic forecast. Opening up the enrollment period would probably see tons of infected folks jump in...which would in turn send everyone's premiums higher since all of them would be considered risk adverse. Considering our economic issues already, the last thing everyone needs is a higher premium. This explains it pretty well and is the reason why we don't have open enrollment periods all the time: https://www.verywellhealth.com/why-cant-i-sign-up-for-health-insurance-whenever-i-want-1738675

    Of course, if we had something like M4A, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place...
     
  18. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Wait and see is an economic death sentence for a quarter or half the country.

    It's also the Republican approach to try to make gains in '22 midterms.

    Here's a good punch list of questions for Congress to contemplate rather than "wait & see"

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/coronavirus-crisis-congress-is-at-a-loss.html

    With that in mind, the Republicans who insist on a wait-and-see approach to the crisis, and the Democrats who are talking about stimulus proposals for reviving the economy while there’s no economy, should both guide their thinking about what to do immediately by, say, talking to one or two normal people a day. The immediate concerns they will hear are some combination of:

    1. I have no money and the economy is shut down. What am I supposed to do?

    2. Do I have to pay my rent/mortgage today and for as long as the crisis lasts?

    3. If I don’t have to pay rent/mortgage today and for as long as the crisis lasts, will I still have to pay the full balance of missed payments eventually?

    4. Since I can’t afford to pay the full balance of missed payments eventually, what am I supposed to do?

    5. What am I going to do when the health crisis is over but my employer/industry/sector of the economy no longer exists?

    6. Do you have a straightforward answer on the rent/mortgage question yet, or are you really just saying, “We’ll figure it out later”?

    7. Am I expected to cover medical bills I accrued during this crisis, and if so, why?

    8. Why?

    To name a few.

    Perhaps for some of these questions, there are programs for people to use—either long-standing ones or ones just being set up—that they don’t know about, or answers that they don’t know about. In that case the government has an extraordinary duty to make sure that they’re properly funded to cover all claimants and to market them beyond “refresh the Department of Labor website for the latest administrative guidance.”

    And if there’s not an answer, get one.
     
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  19. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    What are you talking about no money ?

    Many are still working.

    Those that aren't have increased unemployment benefits - more and longer.

    Gubmint is in the process of handing out $1200 per adult and $500 per child in the near future.

    People who lost those jobs and the associated healthcare haven't lost the healthcare yet - COBRA covers that for some time.

    Many of these people are actually better off on unemployment because of the increased amounts.

    You have a valid point on jobs potentially being gone when things start back up but .... that's not now and we can't know what will and won't be once this is over. Its more than likely that jobs are still there to be had.

    Yeah , you gotta pay the rent.
     
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  20. ElPigto

    ElPigto Member
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    As far as I know, COBRA isn't free. You get to keep your health plan, but you still have to pay the premium cost, don't you? Considering that many Americans have healthcare subsidized by their employer, my guess is they wouldn't be able to keep their health plan, unless they chose to not pay other things.

    Maybe I am wrong, so feel free to correct me. I'm all ears.
     
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