O-Dawg I never said that is always the case (wins vs stats). However Dennis was not a major contributor on the Pistons teams (it was Isiah-Dumars-Vinnie teams not Rodman-Salley) and the Bulls team was the best of the decade before Dennis arrived. Frankly I can't argue this point to anyone else but it make sesnse to me: Kings before Williams - Maybe a 7-8 seed in the west. Maybe a .500 team. Add williams and an inspired Webber and they become the most exciting team in the West, nearly upset the Jazz, and are off to a great start this year. Rockets before Francis - An old, yet contending team. Add Francis (and others), and subtract pippen (and others) and the team starts off 5-12 (with either Dream or Chuck playing). My point is this: Take away Francis & Williams from both teams and compare the talent (Kings last year vs Rockets thius year). I think the Rockets (before the injuries) had more talent. Do you really think the kings have more talent top to bottom? Now plug Williams in last year. Bang! They overnight became the most exciting team offensively in the NBA (in my opinion). They turn into a legitimate playoff team, nearly won their 1st series, and are off to a great start this year. Put Francis in to a transitioning Rockets team, and we are off to a slow start. Not all Steve's fault (or any at all) but Williams seemed to transition his game quicker to the NBA. Frankly, I can't argue this any clearer. Maybe I just like Williams, or maybe you guys are wearing those Rocket colored glasses, but its obvious we are not going to agree. So let's just agree to disagree. OK?
Two things: 1) The two situations are not comparable. This team is clearly in a transition mode. They are moving away from a post-up game to a running game. Of course there are going to be struggles at the beginning. 2) Would you quit acting like the Kings won the freaking championship last year? You stated that they were a 7-8 playoff team. Guess what? They were a 6! Not that much higher than 7-8. They still lost their first round series. When comparing wins and losses, add a little perspective. If Williams had led the Kings to the championship last year, or even the finals, then you could argue wins and losses. However, they lost in the first round as a 6 seed. Also, I'm not sure it was all Williams. The play of Maxwell and Barry off the bench contributed alot too. I'm not wearing Rocket-colored glasses, that term you like to use to call those who believe Francis is better ignorant. I just think that the comparison to wins and losses is not a good one considering that the Kings haven't won that much. I'm not saying they won't, but they haven't yet. It's like comparing Finley to Odom, and saying Finley's better because the Mavericks win more than the Clippers. ------------------ Is it any coincidence that we are the only team mentioned in the national anthem? I didn't think so!
This is ridiculus,people.C'mon!Steve Francis is 20 yrs. old with more talent than any guard to come into the league in years.He is learning the toughest position in the NBA and within 2 seasons should be among the best point guards in the game.(including Payton)If he was allowed to freelance like Iverson,we wouldn't even be having THIS conversation.Stevie is destined for bigger and better things...titles......THE SUPERSTAR GUARD OF THE WEST(at least)...HE IS 20 FREAKING YEARS OLD!He's putting up 18,6,and 6 at 6'3'and as a rookie.Alot of people dismiss the talk of MINI MAGIC/MINI M.J............let me tell you something.With all of our injuries,(and I hate them)it should be even more evident in the coming months how good he really is.He got tossed after 6 min. vs. Dallas or he would be over 18/game.If you look at the history of the NBA,it is cyclic as far as superstars.He is the next STAR in the league. HH
Look at the stats, 'NUFF said! Francis is better. Take Divac and Webber away you got the bulls. If you put Williams on the Rockets and Francis on the Kings who do you think would do better? Rockets don't have chemistry and are rebuilding. You can't compare them by wins because Rockets have lost Barkley and Dream. Plus the crapy play of Walt Williams and Cuttino Mobley don't forget Shandon Anderson also contribute. Haven't learned who to play and be a part of the offense. We had a way better recored last year 31-19 where the kings had a barley winning recored! Who did we have for PG Cuttino Mobley. SO NOW WHERE SAYING CUTTINO MOBLEY IS BETTER THEN JASON WILLIAMS BECAUSE THE ROCKETS HAD MORE WINS LAST YEAR! I don't think so there buddy!!!
I agree O-Dawg. The worm was a great rebounder,one of the best. Barkley is and always will be a better PF. Can Rodman score alittle. Can Barkley YES. Can Rodman pass somewhat, can Barkley YES. Barkley is the one of the only players to have had 20,000 points 10,000 rebounds and 3000 assists. I do not believe the Worm is even close to those numbers. ------------------ Houston Rockets Forever!! In Rudy We Trust
ok, i guess we should just restate the question as this... would you trade Francis for Williams, straight up?
4Chuckie, say you are a GM of the team that has the #1 overall pick. You can only draft a point guard. Will you take Francis or Williams? Just answer the question. ------------------ I'll miss you Charles.
Brycedrew- Remember Cuttino was the #4 or #5 option on last years team (Dream, Chuck, Pip, Dickerson?). Williams is at least #2 contributor (Webber)on the Kings. As far as a trade, I would have done it at the beginning of the year, thinking Dream & Chuck were playing. As I said yesterday he may be the right person for the rockets PG right now, since we need some offense. But since the injuries occurred, no I wouldn't make the trade.
Primetime- I can't answer that unless I know what is already on my team. Francis will be a better scorer, but if my team is established I take williams. Williams won't require as many shots as francis to be effective (I don't think), where francis will be more aggressive offensively. If I need a franchise player (someone to build my entire team around) I take francis, if I have established players (like Webber) I take williams. I would still argue at the begining of the year that Williams might have made Barkley/Dream happier and we would have been better this year (up until CBs injury), but I can't honestly say we would be better in the long run.
4chuckie if that isn't some crock of sh** I ever heard a basketball fan say. We all know Francis is a better player hands down... you said it yourself he is a franchise player. So if you had a choice between Mario Elie and Micheal Jordan on your team, even if you had "established" players, who would you pick?
4CHUCKIE: I like Jason Williams' passing, but he isn't even half the player that Steve Francis is! Let me make a couple of points: *First of all on Webber: Someone stated that Williams is the reason for Webber's turnaround. Nope...let's not forget that Chris is finally out of the Washington party life, and now in Sacramento. I remember hearing in an interview with Chris Webber, Chris stating, "when I was back in Washington, I used to always have parties with Juwon Howard until like 2:00 AM. Here in Sacramento, there is nothing to do but sleep and play basketball, so I think this has really helped my game." That should help clear things up. *What exactly can Jason Williams do? He can pass, and that's about it. Stevie can jump, has better handles, is about 1000 times better defensively, can post up, shoot the medium range jumper, hit the 3... *Don't believe the hype. If you watched Sacramento games on a regular basis last year you would note that Jason Williams was/is an extremely out of control player. All we outside of Sacto ever see is what gets put on Sportscenter. *Jason Williams is unarguably the worst starting point guard defender in the NBA. That is a fact. He is a terrible defender. So bad that Jon Barry even closes out games sometimes for him. *See above point. So much has been said about Jason Williams nearly leading the Kings past the Jazz, but he wasn't even in the game in the 4th quarter and overtime periods of Game 5!! Jon Barry was in there for him!! I have nothing against Jason Williams...I believe he will be a solid player for years to come, but he is nothing compared to Steve Francis. I am sure if you gave Steve Francis a little bit of time to get to know how to play with Corliss Williamson, Vlade Divac, and Chris Webber, he could lead that team beyond where Williams has led it. [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited December 10, 1999).]
cabbage-you beat me to it. White Chocolate does exciting passes, but that's about it. He does highlight-reel passes and is always on ESPN, but creates too many turnovers while doing them. Francis on the other hand is a complete player. He can do it all, unlike Jason.
Yes THANK GOD Francis doesn't make silly STUPID turnovers. DOH !!! Wait a minute.....HE DOES !O$&%()@*&)(#& Drew is playing better then Francis right now, and Steve's defense flat out SUCKS right now. He may indeed be a future star, but he needs to learn to play with his head, not just his monster HOPS. I don't see him getting under control, yet. The Rockets play better ball, offensively and defensively when he is on the bench. Now I am not for a minute saying bench him, he needs to learn, but I am hoping he learns fast. MEMO to Steve. You get on Sportscenter more often when you win. DaDakota
Guys I would rather have Williams. I don't care if you like Stevie. You can't convince me otherwise. I don't believe stat sheets. Wilt was the greatest stat player ever & Russell continually got over on him. The comparison between a true role player & a franchise player where did that come from? Stevie is a Franchise player, but not everybody needs a francise player. Cabbage: Williams is out of control, I'll agree with that. But isn't that what you want Stevie to be. We want to run, we have no post up game, he is the show now, til Dream comes back. Cabbage also you said "Jason Williams is unarguably the worst starting point guard defender in the NBA. That is a fact. He is a terrible defender. So bad that Jon Barry even closes out games sometimes for him". Cabbage I love your posts and you always do your homework, so could you investigate this year what opposing teams PGs have scored vs the Rockets and the Kings. I don't know but I bet if Williams is the worst defender in the league, that stevie isn't far behind. (I know that is a pot shot at a rookie and he will get better, but I believe Williams is better than that). Guys I know I am being attacked by numerous people here, but I believe Williams is a better player, right now than Francis. I further realize I am fighting a losing battle defending him on here, so I won't. But let's make a bet, I think Sacramanto will get over on one of the big 3 (LA, SA, or Portland) in the playoffs. Let's agree to end the post here, and if Sacramento doesn't win a playoff series vs one of those 3, I will post all the virtues of Francis in a topic, and you guys can slam me in all your posts for my stupid comments in this thread. If sacramento gets over all of you (who agree) will start a topic with the virtues of Williams, and of course take some good natured ribbing from me. Anybody in? (PS like I said before i am out of this thread- we just can't agree but I'll check back to see whose in)
Big difference between "running" and "being out of control." Jason Kidd "runs." Jason Williams is "out of control." As for the bet..No BET. The Kings have a solid nucles in Webber (one of the top-5 in the game), Divac, Anderson, and Corliss. They have a nice blend of youth and experience. The Rockets on the other hand are clearly in rebuilding mode and just don't have anyone near Webber's level. 4Chuckie: Jason Williams may just be the perfect guy to run that Sacto Kings team. All I am saying is that I think Francis could do the same with that nucleus. [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited December 11, 1999).]
Francis was 21, 7, 7 and the leading guard vote getter for the all star game. His game was destined to decline fast after injuries but he was a star. I root for sengun to make an all star during his career. He has a shot to do it.
