i ve seen countless interviews with webber regarding Williams. He even said playing with Williams has made him better and made it more enjoyable. So Willams does deserve a significant amount of credit. Theres still plenty of time to gauge these 2..many more years to come
4chuckie williams leading a team with less talent???I think the talent levels are comparable...humm webber(top5 pf),divac(top 7 center atleast),nick anderson(above average sg) not too shabby talnet wise.
I have to ask you people, what exactly is it that Williams does or did that makes his team better that Francis does not? Shanna... Francis has not done that with a Houston team that is arguably just as talented. (interestingly, we are also 3-0 with him out.. granted its a coincidence, but the point is that our record with Francis thus far is dismal) Are you saying that despite the fact that Francis leads the team in scoring and assists he still does not make the Rocks' a better team? Are you really saying that Francis does not make this team better(even after watching him take over in the 1st Vancouver game)? Are you actually saying that Houstons winning streak can be attributed to Francis not being in the line up? Francis is better now and it's a shame that you guys will not only over look current stats and talent level, but also your supposed love for the Rockets to say that Williams is a better player.
Shanna, O.K.,I'll go into detail.First of all ,in my mind M.J. is the greatest player to ever pick up a basketball.Dream is my favorite player,but I digress. Everyone likes to compare Francis to Iverson.Well,I don't think this is a good comparison at all.Stevie is in the process of learning the most difficult position in the NBA.If given carte blanche like Allen,Stevie would go to the line 10-17 times/game and average 30-35 points.Francis's jumper is already miles ahead of Allen's at this point in his career.If he was placed at the 2,you wouldn't be calling me loony.Titles are what stevie's going to be about though,which is why he needs to play the point for now.(actually MOST of the time)We already see the beginnings of the killer instinct that was so famous(among other things)in M.J.He wants the ball at the end of the game.The last shot is Stevie's.The hunger and work ethic necessary to always improve are ther too!The ability to get to the hole at will is there also when the lane isn't clogged.He is like a mini 23 in alot of ways.Needless to say,the athleticism is similiar also. When I watch Stevie I see the same love for the game which Magic possessed.He makes the players around him better and this will only improve.HE'S ONLY PLAYED 16 GAMES.The stat lines are already much like Earvin's.He's so coachable.....sound familiar?I never thought I would see a player that I thought would one day have that coach on the court mentality as well as that athletic ability ever again. Francis is only 20 years old and has been forced to not only subjogate himself to his elders.He had,before Dream's injury been relegated to dumping it in and trying to negotiate around Chuck and Dream in that stagnant old offense..Stevie can pretty much do whatever he wants out there.He is growing at a ferocious rate.Forget about the sick highlight moves we are getting used to,Francis will bring this team titles.The Rockets have done an excellent job of rebuilding on the run.They have talent and cap space down the road.When Rudy figures out how to integrate Shandon into the offense they'll be even better.Francis is a special player.Someone like him comes along...............................................If you don't see all the similiarities,then ........just wait awhile you will. LOONY HH! Be happy that we wil have the priviledge of watching the genesis of a future legend.That backcourt of ours isn't bad is it? [This message has been edited by Hardwood Hammer (edited December 08, 1999).] [This message has been edited by Hardwood Hammer (edited December 08, 1999).] [This message has been edited by Hardwood Hammer (edited December 08, 1999).]
Everyone is acting as if Jason Williams is this proven veteran who has led deep playoff runs for his team every year. If we were comparing Francis to Payton or Kidd, then points would be more valid. The fact of the matter is that he's been in the league for one year, and if he hadn't of made some overly flashy passes, then this wouldn't even be debatable. He ALMOST beat the Jazz last year. I for one think they should have. And this year is still young. I think Denver Nuggets when I think of the Kings.
"Are you saying that despite the fact that Francis leads the team in scoring and assists he still does not make the Rocks' a better team?" No, it does not necessarily make them a better team. A guy could average 20 assists but he if he averages 15 turnovers, he's no help. A guy could average 30 points, but if he takes 40 shots to do it, he's no help (Antoine Walker). It may or may not help the team -- and in his case, it probably does. Has he helped the team as much as Jason Williams? Who knows.. But we were 3-12, Sacramento -- with about as much talent -- was 9-1. Are you actually saying that Houstons winning streak can be attributed to Francis not being in the line up? See, when I say "granted its a coincidence", that's a clue that I probably was not drawing that conclusion. Francis is better now and it's a shame that you guys will not only over look current stats and talent level, but also your supposed love for the Rockets to say that Williams is a better player. You're saying I should consider my love for the Rockets when deciding who's a better player? Sorry, I won't do that. The truly better player is the one that's better to a Basketball fan, not a Rockets fan and not a Kings fan. And, no, I'm not ignoring the stats... Just look at the big stat: Wins and Losses. The Rockets are (*again, so far*) a worse team that last year. The Kings are, so far, a better team than last year. Both have about the same talent levels (sure we lost Pippen but I think we added substantial depth).
Everybody's pretty much said everything on this thread, so I'll just add this... Williams is the most amazing ballhandler I've ever seen since Pistol Pete. He does stuff with the rock that are flat out AMAZING. Pistol Pete was similar in his passing ability from what films I've seen of him. The only other since Pete that I've seen close to that talent level is Williams and maybe Magic. ------------------ Rocket fuel pumps through these veins...
No question about it, Francis is better. Lets rename him Franchise. Can you say that about Williams? I love watching White Chocolate play, but Francis is as much a highlight reel as Williams, but without crazy pull-up 40 foot bricks. Plus Steve can break you down and finish above the rim. Steve is a future cornerstone of the NBA. ------------------ Look out, The Kid is about to blow up!
are you serious with this question? no doubt, Francis is the better! stat wise, Bibby had a better season last year than Jason. Jason just looked better, so he was labeled better. Jason is just good at making things look more difficult than it actually is.
I would cast my vote for White Chocolate. Stats don't tell the whole story, and I don't claim to know the whole story but Williams went to a team that noone had much hope for. Their other star player (Webber) said last year that he wanted to leave. Williams made Webber a better player, took the Kings to the playoffs (and nearly a 1st round upset), and has them off to a great start this year. A great player makes those around him better! Francis could become a great player, and for now Francis does have better stats, but Williams is leading a team with less talent (I believe) to a better record. Next year I may have a different story, but for now Williams is a better player.
Shanna thanks for your posts in supporting me. I think we looked at it the same way, stats are nice but wins determine greatness. After tonights injury to CB I think Houston needs a Francis more now. Now we do need a scorer. Before CB's injury I liked Williams because of what's he's done. Now w/o CB and Dream we need offense, and Francis is where it may have to come from.
"Wins determine greatness." So you guys are basing this argument over the fact that Jason Williams has won a few more regular season games than Francis? Jeez, y'all act as if the guy led his team to the championship last year. News flash-He didn't. Like I've stated before, Williams is not Magic. He did not lead his team to the Finals his rookie year. Plus, if Williams doesn't make numerous unnecessarily flashy passes, we wouldn't even be having this argument.
Shanna, Why would you even mention our record w/o Francis if you really think that it is simply a coincidence. Rocketman95, I agree with you 100%. I say again that some of you posters are giving way to much credit. True he is an exciting player to watch, but with only one year under his belt what makes him more proven than Francis? The teams records, you say? What in the hell does that have to do with who is a better player. Does this mean that we can compare the Michael Jordon and Jeff Hornacek from 97-98 season, because guess what thier teams records were the same(62-20). It's still early in the season. If (and this is a big if now that Charles is out)the Rockets have a better record by or after the allstar break does that mean you will instantly think that Francis is then the better player. Bottomline the question is not whose team is better, whose team has the better record, who is more comfortable with his team, or which team has the better players. The question is WHO (singular, meaning which ONE) IS BETTER? The stats say Francis, the talent level says Francis... the answer has to be Francis. [This message has been edited by O-dawg (edited December 09, 1999).]
Rocketman- What point are you making then- winning isn't important? Francis is a flashy player as well. Bottom line is this: Williams as a Rookie took his team farther than expected. The whole point of this argument is hypothetical. Both are young players leading their respective teams. Noone knows for sure who is better. I've said in about all my posts that Francis has better skills and probably will be better. Instead people like you want to say Francis is a better player, right now, than Williams. Everyone please take off your Rocket Colored glasses- Right Now Williams is better. Francis has more skills/potential but he has only played 15 or so NBA games. Francis should be better at some point- but I don't consider him to be better right now.
Jason Williams DID NOT save the King's franchise... he probably brought more fans to the Kings, but he didn't make their team a winner. Chris Webber did! Take Webber off the team and all you have is a highlight reel on a losing team... sort of like Toronto last season. and I guess you can say that about Houston this year. the Kings and Rockets are both running teams... the difference is, though, everyone on the Kings runs the court, while the Rockets only had three guys that wants to run. (that should change though with Bark and Hak out) i've watched many Kings games... Jason will oohh & ahhh the crowd by doing a bunch of fancy passes and dribbling. and he'll jack up alot of bad 3's. but at the end, he'll only have about 13 points (on 4-12 shooting) and seven assist. Steve will get you those assists, along with more points, more boards, and more steals. now, does Jason really make his teammates better? Webber and Divac were always good. Corliss's stats actually have been going down, and so has Nick's stats. so I don't see how he's really improved their games? remember, Jason has been a pg since high school. Steve has just been converted this year.
DreamTeam I like your post. However I think there are too many thinks that are coincidences with the kings. 1. Webber had his best year last year, williams 1st year. 2. The Kings exceeded expectations last year, williams 1st year. 3. The kings are off to a great start this year. I will again say (I know it's getting old) but stats are fine, but winning matters. Webber was a key part, but so was Williams. An example of this is Russell-Chamberlain. Wilt was the most talented athlete to ever play the game, yet Russell won alot more rings. Not trying to compare these two to Wilt-Bill but it was the best comparison I could think of with players from same era & position. I though we may have had a good comparison at the end of this year, just with records, playoff advancements, etc. That is obviously not fair now with Dream out 6 more weeks, and Chuck out.
Lets say the Karl Malones Jazz had more wins then the Michael Jordan Bulls. SO KARL MALONE IS BETTER? EVEN THOUGH MICHAEL JORDAN HAS BETTER STATS? GIVE ME A BREAK!
I cannot believe there's people who think Francis is a cross between Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan. Man, I sure hope he is. But, give me a break. You mean to tell me that Steve Francis is a mix of the greatest point guard and the greatest shooting guard to ever play basketball? I think Francis' comparison to Iverson is warranted. They are similar in size, shooting %, TOs, FT%, leaping (Francis has slight edge, but he's 2" taller too), they both played the point at similar points in their careers, but some people want them to play the 2. Off the court Francis so far hasn't been comparable to Allen, but on the court, they've been very comparable. I hope Francis improves and becomes a Hall-of-Famer, but damn that's expecting a lot out of this guy. Let's let him develop and see what happens. Labeling him a Magic/MJ hybrid is putting ridiculous pressure and expectation on him. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
Brycedrew: Not very good at logic are you? I said stats dont always tell the whole story. Never said that stats are never important. In addition didn't Jordan's teams win 6 titles? Enough said. Winning is important. Another comparison I heard somewhere is is look at David Robinson's lifetime stats vs Dreams. They are similar. Would you say Robinson is even in the same ball park as Dream?
Ok... 4chuckie here's some logic for you: I don't think that anyone here can argue (not even you hopefully) that Charles Barkley is and has always been, hands down, a better powerfoward than Dennis Rodman. But using your logic this would not be the case. Dennis definetly has more wins and rings, but was he ever a better powerforward than Barkley. I think not. I say all this to make this point. YOUR logic stinks. I say again 4chuck' when comparing players whose team is better, whose team has the better record, who is more comfortable with his team, or which team has the better players has absolutely nothing to do with the individual talents and skills of the players that you are comparing.
