Very well. I'll change the title as "superstar" probably limits it to a very small handful of players depending on definition. Still I think Derozan and Carmelo (at least prime) are superstars.
Yeah superstar it depends on the definition everyone uses. Some think superstars are only top 10 best players and some think it has to do with popularity. In lesser extend there are other star players who if not diminishing they dont' make their teammates better. For example Kyrie Irving. Love, LMA Ball dominance /very high usage+ bad or bellow average defence without playmaking => not making your teammates better imo.
How can you look at Lebron and Westbrick and say they are both a "teammate diminishing player"? Lebron is known as the 2nd coming of Magic and honestly he HATES taking the last shot, aside from Harden there is no other superstar that doesn't mind others taking all the shots in the league today that's why everybody is lining up to play with him. For Bosh and Love, those two weren't exactly champions before they got together with Lebron, in fact Love hadn't made the playoffs even once in his career and Bosh hadn't got past the second round. So it's not like they were already these ass banging players who suddenly sucked when they played with Lebron. How does this make Lebron the ultimate teammate diminishing player when he took those guys and made them champions? You can argue Bosh and Love's stats declined because they are now playing with Lebron but that is natural because both players aren't good enough to get that high a usage rating in the first place. What I'm saying is a team that has Love or Bosh as the focal point and taking so many shots that they average 20+ pts a night means that team probably sucks. If that team is to be better, then the shots need to go to somebody else who is better ie Lebron and Irving/Wade. It's a stretch to say Bosh and Love could've been replaced by role players, as we can see from Ryan Anderson's performance stretch 4s all tend to suck in the playoffs anyway, so if you replaced Love and Bosh with inferior players those guys probably wouldn't even see the court and be benched instead like what happened to Anderson. Bosh as a member of the heat for example still managed to score 16-18 pts a nights despite being "limited to a rebounder and defensive" role. If a guy gives you 16 pts a night while rebounding and still defending extremely well can he still be considered a role player? That is already star production. As for Yao-Mac those two didn't mesh well because of injuries and laziness, Yao Ming wasn't originally this slow he only became slow because of repeated foot and knee injuries. If he was healthy he would've played great. Tmac oth was too lazy to fix his jumper and just relied on his reputation as a great scorer and his athleticism to get away with scoring every night, if he had good work ethic he could've easily become a 3 pt threat which would've meshed well with Yao Ming's half court style bball. Westbrick being one of bball's worst teammates is nothing new and known to everyone except Russ homers.
OP, to support your assertion, can you name a single player that looked better once he was no longer playing with Lebron? I can't think of one off the top of my head.
By the OP's logic you could make the argument Lebron plays with 2 "diminishing" superstars. How did Kyrie elevate his teammates before Lebron came? How did Love elevate his teammates when he was in Minnesota? Maybe that's the effect of what happens when Lebron goes to the bench? 2 superstars that can't elevate each other and elevate their team takes over.
I get what you are trying to say. A lot people here are missing the point. LeBron does not diminish the production of his teammates. In fact, he is one of the greatest facilitators the game has ever seen. What he diminishes is the capacity of his teammates to play to their own strengths. The problem is the isolation offense LeBron has played throughout his career. Even in Miami with Wade and Bosh, the offense was the same. It's not LeBron's fault. He was born a point guard in a small forward body, which has created the dilemma where any guard playing alongside him has to relinquish ball control and become either a spot up shooter or a slasher. This shuffling on offense echoes further down the lineup when LeBron drives to the basket, it clogs the lane and requires a stretch power forward to space the floor. Now, you have two to three players having to play out of position, thereby disrupting their normal tendencies and responsibilities. That's why when LeBron goes to the bench, the team struggles to readjust the roles. This is why LeBron should wise up and let Kyrie run the offense. LeBron needs to evolve his game at this point in his career in order to remain effective against the Warriors who simply decided to let him have the easy layups and shut down his passing lanes. LeBron put up historic numbers in the Finals, but his teammates were reduced to mere spectators.
Mo averaged 17 and 6 for 2 straight years with the Bucks before Lebron with the Cavs...his numbers didn't change much other than the increased 3pt % which is obviously due to Lebron I agree with you OP as far as "stars" go...every star teammate of LeBron's statistics take huge hits. I don't see any evidence of them being "better" with LeBron. There seems to be a strange phenomenon where all-stars become "trash" and "bums" etc the moment they play on the same team as LeBron but the narrative continues to be that LeBron makes everyone great and everyone would love to play with him.
on 20 win teams... Where was that all-star appearance before and after lebron? Not only did mo williams post a career high in 3pt percentages (well above his career average), he posted career highs in 3 pointers made per game and 3 pointers made in total because of those wide open looks lebron created for him. Mo Williams flat out had his best season as an NBA player because of lebron James and never played at that level again after lebron.
I dont know about diminish but Andrea Bogut is the opposite He turned Curry into MVP, Klay and Draymond into all stars through illegal screens and dirty play...
I suggest you do your research. Bosh decided himself that he didn't want to bang around in the post. Also, your entire argument is just idiocy. I could give so many reasons why that is, but quite frankly, this argument is so stupid it is simply not worth the effort or time.
Man this thread is all types of confused. The first (???) moment has been addressed, clearly LeBron only makes perimeter players around him better. But the second (???) moment was when you stated that Demar Derozan was a superstar. WTF.... There are only a handful of "SUPERSTARS" in this league and two of them play for the Warriors. The others in no particular order are: LeBron, Westbrook, Kawhi, and Harden... there are a few players making their way onto the list (Giannis, AD, KAT, and Kyrie) but to call Derozan a superstar over any of those 4 guys I just mentioned is ridiculous. You guys need to find an urban dictionary and look up the word superstar vs. all-star.
