Star Players That Diminish Star Teammates

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by celebrevida, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. celebrevida

    celebrevida Member

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    We all know that there are star players that elevate teammates (or at the very least not hold them back). But we also know that there stars that diminish their teammates.

    For example Steve Nash is the epitome of a star that elevated his teammates.

    And even if you are the number 1 scorer and option, you can still be a teammate-elevating type player. Consider Steph Curry for example. Its one of the reasons why I think he is more "valuable" than player that might be more dominant than him such as Westbrook.

    Speaking of him. I think that Westbrook can easily become a player that elevates (or at least not diminish) other players. So I don't think it is "intrinsic" to his game at all.

    But sometimes, its not selfishness at all. Sometimes its just inherent in the talent and style of play of the start. IOW it is in fact "intrinsic" to their game.

    Take Lebron James. He is one of the most dominant and greatest players of all time. And he scores at super high efficiency. So he's no Westbrook type chucker. But his main strength isn't his great shooting. Its his ability to go 1-on-1 or even 1-on-3 and just bulldoze his way to the basket. So his teammates are left standing around waiting to either get the OReb or becoming just a spot-up shooter when he dishes on the drive.

    And when LBJ has to go on the bench, suddenly all of his teammates are like "WTF do I do on offense now??? I'm just used to standing around watching LBJ and being reduced to a role player in this Lebron-centric, iso-ball style of play." There is a reason why Cavs +/- are so awful with and without LBJ. Lebron James is perhaps one of the most teammate diminishing players in history due to his talent and style of play.

    Another example of a "teammate-diminishing" is Yao Ming. This is a player that is slow and gets most of his points in a dump-it-to offense while teammates just stand around watching and waiting for a dish-out. And due to his slowness, up-tempo players have their skills neutered as well.
     
    #1 celebrevida, Jun 16, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
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  2. Mr. Space City

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    Lebron turned Mo Williams into an all-star. If that's not "elevating" your teammates then I don't know what is.
     
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  3. RedRedemption

    RedRedemption Contributing Member

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    LOL.
     
  4. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Lebron gets flak..... that is nothing new.
     
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  5. RocketDream

    RocketDream Member

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    LeBron James, one of the most pass-first dominant superstars in NBA history, is perhaps the most teammate-diminishing player? Is Magic Johnson second on that list?

    I do think that the current Cavaliers offense is an iso-heavy mess a lot of the time and it relies way too heavily on James to do all the heavy lifting (the Warriors' system, for example, was able to survive periods without Curry in the years before Durant because the ball and player movement helped even lesser players find decent shots). But it's not because James diminishes his teammates.
     
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  6. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

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    I don't get the logic. LeBron's is teammate diminishing as evidenced by the fact that they went "WTF" when he is off the court. However, Steve Nash, who you argue is teammate enhancing, had a similar effect on his teammates: The 2004-05 Suns, for example. were hugely worse offensively with Nash off the court:

    http://www.82games.com/04PHO2D.HTM
     
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  7. plutoblue11

    plutoblue11 Member

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    :D OMG, a what! type thread without what!
     
  8. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Yea. . . you logic is kind of allover the place

    Rocket River
     
  9. celebrevida

    celebrevida Member

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    You cannot just look at assists or even +/- on and off the court. Rather its more of how the way a superstar plays is basically reducing another star player into a diminished role player status.

    LBJ has done this with both Bosh and Love. There's no denying it. Both players were good in the paint and in the post but were basically reduced to spot up perimeter players and defensive rebounders. That being the case, the Heat and the Cavs each could have saved a lot of money and added more depth by just getting a role players instead of Bosh and Love respectively!

    And I also mentioned that Yao is likewise a "teammate diminishing" player as well. Not due to selfishness or anything but due to his dump-it-down iso play and his slowness. McGrady was held back by Yao all those years due to this slow, half-court, dump-it-to style of play.

    And then of course there is Westbrook. I don't care how many assists he gets, he is clearly a teammate-diminishing player!
     
  10. adeelionaire

    adeelionaire Member

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    Russ = anti-elevate
    Kawhi = anti-elevate
     
  11. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

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    So you are talking about teammates' personal counting stats? Sure, having a higher usage teammate would reduce one's touches. This is how Russell Westbrook got all these extra touches when KD went away.
     
  12. Mr. Space City

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    Going from a first option on a non-playoff team to a 3rd option on a contender is of course going to limit your role. There is only 1 ball and someone is going to have to sacrifice.
     
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  13. dharocks

    dharocks Contributing Member

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    The only players LeBron makes 'worse' are the post-up guys whose value is heavily dependent on their ability to score the basketball down low. So basically Bosh and Love (and both were still damn good, they just lost shot attempts from the low post area). Kyrie just had a career year with LeBron. D-Wade posted career-best efficiency numbers with LeBron. As mentioned earlier, Mo Williams made a damn all-star team, because LeBron's shooters feast on open looks.

    Not a good example.

    Usually when star players diminish each other, it's simply because their games aren't complementary at all.
     
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  14. Jontro

    Jontro Member

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    lerbon james diminish all the superstars in the east, that's why they all ran away to the west.
     
  15. DMO (DJ remix)

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    If Cavs had cap space, FA's would lineup to get their stats diminished.
     
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  16. Blurr#7

    Blurr#7 Contributing Member

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    My brain cells are diminished after reading your post.
     
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  17. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    By your logic Harden is diminishing himself and his teammates in the playoffs. So he just quit because he realizes it.
     
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  18. Jontro

    Jontro Member

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    i think this is similar to mergady. he realized his greatness was too much, which explains the toronto game.
     
  19. seetow1

    seetow1 Member

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  20. malakas

    malakas Member

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    I don't get your definition. I can't think of any SUPER star that is diminishing his teammates right now in the league. But for so called stars or good players there are a lot :
    Cousins.
    Demar Derozan
    Carmelo
    Drummond
    Wiggins
     
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