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Sorry but Harden step back is a Blatent travel

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by HardenMvp, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. topfive

    topfive CF OG
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    Too bad the ref didn't have a clear view. ;)
     
  2. TheresTheDagger

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    I gather you're just over all this nonsense.
     
  3. csj

    csj Member

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    Because he is initiating his move as he finishes his dribble. "Receiving the ball" in this case occurs before the ball "touches with both hands behind his back" since both hands are not required to terminate a dribble.

    No, it is not required in the rules to "need a step to not fall over", but in order to use up to two steps to "come to a stop" there needs to be a reason to use those steps. If a player is not sufficiently in motion as to require a step then there would be no reason to allow steps to come to a stop. Harden in this case has both feet on the ground and is shifting his weight from left to right as the dribble comes to an end. It is clear that he is stationary even if he is not motionless.

    It would appear your "reading" of the rules is geared toward seeing how much a player can get away with while mine is geared toward determining the intent. Harden is initiating a move from stationary while picking up his dribble. He is walking here.
     
  4. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    reading "travel gurus" trying to provide their explanation of what's happening is comical
     
    harold bingo likes this.
  5. kjayp

    kjayp Contributing Member

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    Long and short of it folks... is sometimes it is - and sometimes it isnt...

    Sometimes he clearly has the ball grasped between both of his hands (albeit for a split second or two) and then he takes a step back - thats a travel.

    Sometimes he is in the act of finishing his dribble while he takes that step - and has 1 foot planted before the other hand connects with the ball (thereby ending his dribble) - that aint a travel.

    On the one hand... kudos to him for figuring out a way to raise his game by determining a way to get separation...

    On the other hand... this is probably why the refs dont like him... You really got to watch him like a hawk if you have any hope of knowing you are making the right call - and even then its such a quick timing thing that they may still get it wrong... Basically, he makes their job much harder - and nobody likes someone who makes their job harder... I aint sayin their dislike is right - but it is what is...
     
    hakeem94 likes this.
  6. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    Lol refs hate harden because it forces them to do theirs jobs?
     
    Pizza_Da_Hut likes this.
  7. BMoney

    BMoney Contributing Member

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  8. RocksMillenium

    RocksMillenium Contributing Member

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    So were Patrick Ewing's drive to the basket and Michael Jordan constantly palming. It's called being a superstar and it didn't need a new thread started to point that out.
     
  9. foh

    foh Member

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    If "progressing" is not defined as having to move for a bit before you will be considered as legitimately moving, then the "initiating" you are referring to can still be defined as "progressing". Could be a superstar thing or not, but it is a plausible reading of the rule that you refer to.

    If someone starts a drive from a stand still towards the basket, when can s/he pick up the dribble and make two steps? After center of gravity has started moving or after a step is made while dribbling? I think that would be a good precedent as to whether to consider this a travel.

    He can have two steps, not to "come to a stop" but to "shoot the ball". There is a clear 'OR' conjunction in the rule you posted:
    "b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball."

    I admit, I don't know the rules too well, I'm just trying to think logically about what you have posted.
     
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  10. csj

    csj Member

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    Many of the terms require interpretation, including "progressing". It must be viewed in the context of needing to come to a stop. That would mean more than simply a non-zero movement of center of gravity which occurs pretty much all the time. Otherwise, a player could be considered "progressing" indefinitely without lifting a foot. The ultimate "euro-step".

    In this case, initiating his move should clearly come before be ends the dribble and that is not clear. Otherwise, he's stationary since rocking side to side doesn't require movement of his feet. As others have said already, he shifts his weight earlier without lifting his right foot and this is evidence that he is not "progressing". Progressing here needs to be defined as the moment he clearly commits to taking the step. That seems to me to occur after he "receives the ball", another term requiring interpretation.

    A moving player is allowed up to two steps to accomplish 1 of 3 things. Once at least one of those things is accomplished, extra steps are no longer allowed. Two of those things involve releasing the ball so it doesn't matter, but stopping doesn't. Once he stops, his right to extra steps is gone and the question of pivot foot arises.

    If what you say is true, then a player could stand flatfooted indefinitely, then take two steps and shoot.

    IMO it's a travel but not a blatant one and I would expect refs to allow it far more often than not. There are much worse travel violations occurring all the time. Harden is pushing the edge here, not blatantly violating the rules.
     
  11. fadeawayjae

    fadeawayjae Member

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  12. John Harvey

    John Harvey Member

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    WTF does #STAYM7LO mean ...
     
  13. riko

    riko Member

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    Yep he was found out to be a trolling linfan. Another I’d the clown used was Lorna malvo
     
  14. bmelo

    bmelo Member

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    i just explained to you why some people get idea that its travel. i dont believe it is - if it was refs in warriors series would blow the whistle everytime.

    internet is worldwide. some people play the game of basketball their whole life with certain sets of rules and then see highlights of rockets on tv and they think its travel - a lot of my friends actually do that
     
  15. DanO 337

    DanO 337 Member

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    Y'all have this dude exactly what he wanted. Attention.
     
  16. edwardc

    edwardc Member

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    This is a waste of time everyone knows it's not traveling.
     
  17. kubli9

    kubli9 Contributing Member

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    The new rule should be if you call Harden's stepback a travel on this board then it's an automatic ban.
     
  18. gravityonme

    gravityonme Member

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    The broad stroke of the Harden travel argument is that Harden uses his footwork to move into his step back/side step before picking up his dribble, tricking defenders into thinking they have coverage over the shot when really Harden is moving away. In many ways it's a more elegant version of a pump fake or a Eurostep or even breaking someone's ankles.

    The problem is fans have a bias that because you're moving into a shooting motion it means you've picked up your dribble. It's a bias that players also have that Harden is exploiting. Are people seriously arguing that it's 'against the spirit of the game' to outfox opponents because fans were also outfoxed???
     
  19. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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  20. RedIsen

    RedIsen Member

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    In The Lab did a little video about it (ignore the clickbaity thumbnail). If you guys follow the channel, you know Dev is legit and knows what he's talking about.



    Basically, Jamal Crawford's "shake and bake" is pretty much the same move. The move has been done at all levels, grade school, highschool, college. Harden just did it so smoothly with just enough hesitation that people think its a travel.

    Also people just don't like Harden lol.
     
    ilovehtownbb likes this.
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