Something I Never Really Understood...

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by AstroMechPLZ, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. AstroMechPLZ

    AstroMechPLZ Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    35
    Why do people, when pointing out efficient scoring, always say a player scored X points on Y shots, while completely ignoring how many FTAs they had? There's a big difference between someone scoring 15 points on 10 shots and 0 FTAs versus someone scoring 15 points on 10 shots and 20 FTAs - FTAs use up possessions too.
     
  2. DaDakota

    DaDakota Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    100,405
    Likes Received:
    2,296
    Shhhh......oh, no...it's too late for the stat geeks !

    [​IMG]

    DD
     
  3. Shaud

    Shaud Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Messages:
    18,236
    Likes Received:
    325
    Too late for your gif to work
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. VBG

    VBG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    7,877
    Likes Received:
    230
    You should look at points per possession.

    So you see free throws, and 1s, threes, twos, turnovers
     
  5. robbie380

    robbie380 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    17,866
    Likes Received:
    598
    DD your anti intellectualism is cute.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. robbie380

    robbie380 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    17,866
    Likes Received:
    598
    Yeah FTs use up possessions, but FTs are extremely efficient. If you shoot 80% from the line that's the equivalent of shooting 80% from 2 point land. So yeah it's a bit lazy if someone says it how you said it, but it's kind of understood FTAs will likely use a possession.
     
  7. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2000
    Messages:
    16,309
    Likes Received:
    442
    Lookup ts% it takes free throws into account.
     
  8. rocketkid713

    rocketkid713 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    6
  9. RedRedemption

    RedRedemption Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Messages:
    28,227
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Free throw attempts accomplish two things:
    Most likely send a over-70% free throw shooter to the line.
    Force the other team to commit a foul and possibly put someone into foul trouble.

    ... Also, stoppage of play prevents there from being any defensive consequences.
     
  10. HTown_TMac

    HTown_TMac Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,796
    Likes Received:
    91
    if im not mistaken, thats the point..
     
  11. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    14,948
    Likes Received:
    545
    *EDITED:* oops, didnt read the previous comments right. Repeating everyone's point again -*

    1) A player makes 10/20 shots. Hits 5 threes. Makes 0/0 FTS.
    - Thats 25 points in 20 shots

    2) A player takes 5/10 shots. Hits 0 threes. Makes 15/20 FTS.
    - thats 25 points in just 10 shots!

    Thats annoyed me as well. We know that Kevin Martin for example is eating up much more possesions than his "20 points on 8 shots" lines)

    STILL: 15/20 free throws is still better than most shooting percentages. That's equivalent to 7/10 FG with 1 three pointer. We darn well know teams can't do that even for ONE game yet alone a full season

    So you still need 3 pointers and free throws to get more "bang for possession buck" than just trying to make a high degree of 2 pointers.
     
    #11 Shroopy2, Apr 18, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
  12. Jontro

    Jontro Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Messages:
    20,549
    Likes Received:
    1,366
    FTA doesn't count as efficiency because it's for little girls.
     
  13. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    14,948
    Likes Received:
    545
    Defensive consequences like you mentioned with free throws and with threes was was an underrated defense aspect of Phil Jackson's teams. The approach was to NOT send guys to the foul line and PREVENT 3 POINTERS. (Have teams try to beat them making 2's)

     
  14. robbie380

    robbie380 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    17,866
    Likes Received:
    598
    DD disapproves :(
     
  15. TexAg713

    TexAg713 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    73
    And I don't want to coach at the college level, they don't pay enough on average to interest me, nor do I want to deal with recruiting etc.

    Doesn't mean I couldn't coach, I firmly believe I could, but just means I choose not to pursue it, because it doesn't interest me as much.
     
  16. jopatmc

    jopatmc Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    15,367
    Likes Received:
    377

    There's one factoid missing here. It's a lot easier to limit free throws and defend the 3-point line when you have 2, count 'em 2, of the longest tallest, most talented big men in the game for major minutes at the same time. That means you can defend the paint effectively without fouling and that also means you can tighten up the perimeter because you've got two gobstoppers in the paint when opponents dive to the paint for layups.
     
  17. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    14,948
    Likes Received:
    545
    Yes, do agree.

    The article does mention that its not JUST those elements that makes a defense decent. Just that its notable for PJ's Lakers defenses

    Back to the OP's statement -

    Good question.

    Like others have said, thats where you factor in true shooting and points-per possession to "tidy up" those lines. Those arent clean box score stats. I don't think free throws are TOTALLY ignored, just its saying "15 points but with how many free throws?" is similarly NOT a simple way of looking at scoring either.

    All in all, it still is good to have some reliable TWO point makers. Cuz, as with Kevin Martin again, he has to get his points in the ebb and flow of the game. When you NEED to draw up a play, you can't strategically RELY on a referee whistle.
     
  18. VBG

    VBG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    7,877
    Likes Received:
    230
    The Spurs defense is built on the same principle.
     
  19. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    28,126
    Likes Received:
    1,222
    That's why true shooting percentage takes into account free throw attempts. On average, each free throw attempt is the equivalent of 0.44 extra "shots". Hence, the formula;

    ts% = 0.5 * PTS / (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)
     

Share This Page