1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

So the Astros 2017 title is tainted

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by rockets13champs, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    16,058
    Likes Received:
    3,700
    Sign stealing is more a micro benefit than a macro benefit. Random variability has some pretty big swings that can mask marginal benefits. Though, marginal benefits add up even if one marginal benefit may only add a win or 2.
     
    Invisible Fan and SWTsig like this.
  2. Handles

    Handles Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,207
    Likes Received:
    847
    Isn’t the counter argument that astros weren’t doing this on every at bat? Just some pivotal ones? Cheating on choice situations would get smoothed out over a long season and wouldn’t show up in the stats. Maybe if you compared high leverage at bats only. Or maybe we did just suck at cheating idk.

    What I don’t like is the guy’s quote towards the end - “the fact that they continued to use this scheme throughout the year...” I want to know how this guy knows this and where he’s getting his “facts”.
     
    everyday eddie likes this.
  3. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    35,803
    Likes Received:
    5,295
    The Yankees and Dodgers were also really talented teams. In a pair of 7 game series, a minimal advantage can be the difference between a World Series and not. If the risk was so high and the reward so low, and the Astros really are smart, they wouldn't have done it - so at least one of those things is probably not true.
     
    SWTsig likes this.
  4. LonghornFan

    LonghornFan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    15,577
    Likes Received:
    2,456
    They're coming after the Astros and nobody else because...

    Mike Fiers ratted them out. They have a witness.

    The Scouts are now ratting them out for being treated so poorly and with disdain, then being fired. Can't blame them. They do not want their reputations ruined with this garbage.

    The extreme arrogance and stupidity by sending instructions to cheat via ****ing email. Their arrogance left a paper trail.

    The Astros organization being so brazen and arrogant and treating employees like trash due to the win only attitude. You're now seeing the effects of this, so all of those articles are starting to make most take heed. Asking the scouts to cheat, they revolt and then after 2017 they fired them all?

    After this the arrogance really shows up. In 2019 the Astros had 20 scouts, less than half of the next closest team with the next fewest scouts. In 2009 they had 55. They felt so superior to others that on their 2019 Directory of Pro Scouting they listed - ASTROS. No scouts names, and they put up a picture of Kevin Goldstein, who then was the Special Assistant to Lunhow and the moron who sent the email in 2017.

    Many articles said this started in 2017 by new hires new to the organization. So basically Beltran (2017) and Cora (2016). So if they come after the Astros so hard, those two should take a beat down as well.

    This brazeness also backfired and showed the organizations true colors by the way they handled the Detroit Free Press reporter who Verlander just did not like mid season, and of course with the whole Taubman debacle.

    And this...this says a lot imo. Just listen and read his body language.



    It's a VERY sucky time to be an Astro fan right now, and MLB fanbases will never let this live down. That's expected. The facts coming out though through so many channels is that yes, they cheated after being told to stop TWICE. Fans need to get over it, hope they settle this soon and hand out the punishment before they find anything else, and move on. Nothing us fans can do about it, but it sure as hell doesn't stop the hurt. I cannot wait to hear from the players, and the Athletic has a piece on the Astros players and their thoughts that I'm interested to read. Just came out like 15 minutes ago.
     
    #584 LonghornFan, Nov 20, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
    REEKO_HTOWN and awc713 like this.
  5. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    16,058
    Likes Received:
    3,700
    Risk wasn't seen as high. Reward was low when compared over a 162 game season, but was high in the playoffs when a game can be difference in a series.
     
    #585 Joe Joe, Nov 20, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  6. htwnbandit

    htwnbandit Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2013
    Messages:
    2,416
    Likes Received:
    961
    But is there any solid evidence it was used in the playoffs? I've pretty much accepted that they did it in the regular season, and that many teams also likely did it. But they won 2 games on the road against the Dodgers including the 7th game.
     
    everyday eddie and msn like this.
  7. msn

    msn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    11,020
    Likes Received:
    886
    This. This is the big question, for me.
     
  8. LonghornFan

    LonghornFan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    15,577
    Likes Received:
    2,456
    Also, even Rosenthal wrote an article yesterday and the first sentence says it all. Manfred would rather just sweep it under the rug though as he know's he's got the ammo on the Astros but wants to make this just go away before the 2021 season when he's going to be up to his ears in **** when the players "strike" could happen.

    This is called Selective Punishment and could possibly lead to a lawsuit making everything much worse.

    [​IMG]
     
    #588 LonghornFan, Nov 20, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  9. SWTsig

    SWTsig Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,110
    Likes Received:
    2,092
    what a **** show. i'm perfectly fine w them gaining a competitive advantage bc i've been around baseball long enough to know that every team and player is looking for a leg up and in a game with so many variables there are countless ways that can be done. the game basically invites it.

    but the braziness, the "f*ck you" attitude, the bro culture created within the FO while deciding to so openly circumvent the rules is mind-boggling. they've placed this massive target on their back and it was seemingly by design (or stupidity). wtf guys???
     
  10. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    43,316
    Likes Received:
    11,783
    you ever meet someone who works in finance?
     
    Screaming Fist and AznH-TownFan like this.
  11. Screaming Fist

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    389
    Likes Received:
    211
    I can understand this idea generally (sum together a bunch of small competitive advantages to achieve a large one), but when the potential risk for Luhnow in obtaining this particular micro benefit is being suspended or even losing his job, is it worth it? Just seems odd.
     
    htwnbandit likes this.
  12. Screaming Fist

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    389
    Likes Received:
    211
    lol yeah Taubman in particular exuded this crap.
     
  13. The Real Shady

    The Real Shady Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2000
    Messages:
    16,264
    Likes Received:
    2,224
    Oddly received a call from the Astros yesterday attempting to sell season tickets. Seemed a little earlier for those calls, but I'm assuming they are trying to sell as much as possible before everything is released by MLB.
     
    htwnbandit likes this.
  14. mick fry

    mick fry Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2013
    Messages:
    19,225
    Likes Received:
    6,817
    From what I have read it’s been known that teams are doing this so why are we the whipping boys? The best thing for the organization is to go on offensive and prove it and stop singling them out for something the majority of the league was most likely doing.
     
  15. ipaman

    ipaman Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Messages:
    11,355
    Likes Received:
    5,415
    OP, your mom is tainted.
     
    Marteen likes this.
  16. marks0223

    marks0223 Astros STILL 2017 Champions
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,352
    Likes Received:
    3,701
    No doubt the Astros will be saying everything they know or think they know about other teams and if they don't think Manfred will do anything about it they will leak it to the press. Manfred doesn't want a league wide stain but just get it all over with now instead of having new allegations in the future.
     
    everyday eddie and mick fry like this.
  17. astros123

    astros123 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,547
    Likes Received:
    1,216
    Ive been saying this exact same thing since the story has broke. At this point im so deflated ive mentally checked out for this offseason. As a regular season ticket holder im not renewing next season and neither are a bunch of my other clients who have mini packages. At this point whatever happens happens and im just immune to it.

    As Astros fans we must not forget how much weve enjoyed this team the past few season. The joy they brought us was worth this **** show that were in now in my opinion. I always had a notion that there was definitely some cheating occuring but i just always thought luhnow would know how to hide it. Whatever happens I'll always be an Astros fan before a Luhnow or Crane supporter. Does it suck that MLB is burrying the investigation? Of course but what do you expect them to do? Open a wide league scandal a year before the collective bargaining agreement expires. Cmon, business is a cut throat world where morals often get thrown out the window.

    Ive already embraced myself for the worst and i expect all fans here for the same. Luhnow gets a substantial ban (one season is my guess), we lose half of our international money, 5 million dollar fine, lose our top 2 draft picks, and well go into some sort of monitoring program.

    I dont see the Astros snitching out the whole league. I see more that Crane tries to appease the league by laying off alot of his front FO. This is business man. Its never a good prescient to go to war with the league. Thats a battle thag Crane will never win.

    People here forget that MLB was the same league that tried to buy the sterioid investigation and cover it up. They also prepared the pkayers to testify in front of congress and give false testimony. MLB is the best at covering up a mess out of any other league.

    Im sure MLB approaches Crane with a solution that allows him to keep the ring and at the same time limit the damage. This is a 15 billion dollar industry dude. Money will always rule.
     
    #597 astros123, Nov 20, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  18. msn

    msn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    11,020
    Likes Received:
    886
    Respectfully disagree. I mean, this sucks for sure, but it can't take away the ring, Altuve's MVP, Verlander's no-no, etc. Nothing can take any of that away. It's still been an amazing ride. I hate the cheating, but I also disagree with the thread title: the 2017 title is not tainted. If there aren't any asterisks next to the steroid titles, we certainly won't be having one next to ours.

    2017 will always be ours. Nothing can take that away from us.
     
  19. mikol13

    mikol13 Protector of the Realm
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Messages:
    10,969
    Likes Received:
    17,439
  20. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    37,615
    Likes Received:
    15,606
    Yankees put up a total of 3 runs in 4 games on the road that year in their series against us. People acting like they deserved to win, they did not, they had 0 runs in game 7. Zero. Nada. Nilch. Any fan saying "We deserve to win!" and players on their team thinking "We were the better team" after putting up 0 runs in a game 7 need to STFU.

    Dodgers were hammered in a game 7 at their own stadium, their pitcher was tipping, and before this stuff came out admitted that he was tipping his pitches.

    Yeah, no way this title is an asterisk, just salty Dodgers and Yankee fans.
     
    #600 JayGoogle, Nov 20, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
    HatsForBats, msn, BigM and 3 others like this.
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now