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So the Astros 2017 title is tainted

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by rockets13champs, Nov 12, 2019.

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  1. awc713

    awc713 Member
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    Build this man a statue and keep him for life LFG
     
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  2. texans1095

    texans1095 Member

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    Soooooo Astros only have to forfeit first 2 picks for one year or what?:D

     
  3. Jake Tower

    Jake Tower Member

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    No ballplayer has more integrity than Cal Ripken Jr. He’s not too hard on the Astros.

    There are moralists and pragmatists. Then there is a rarer breed: the moral pragmatist, such as Ripken. In his profession, he has his own compass. Sometimes that makes him set the bar higher for himself than he expects of others. He may still judge, but not as harshly.

    That’s how Ripken sounds when he talks about the Astros — like they are an unfortunate part of a long, bad tradition, but not a unique band of villains worthy of public (opinion) execution.

    Then he added, “Teams seem to have forgotten how to solve the cheating problem.”

    Oh, really, part 2. Do tell.

    Between innings, Ripken said, pitcher and catcher agree that on a certain pitch, the signal will be for a curveball low and away. But pitcher and catcher both know that the pitch will really be a fastball up-and-in. If nobody’s cheating, nobody gets hurt.

    “But if you’re striding out to get to a curveball away,” Ripken said, “and you realize at the last instant that it’s a high fastball that’s following you in, and your face is diving right into its path, your life passes before your eyes.

    “Not too many guys want to ‘get pitches’ after that.”


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...y-than-cal-ripken-jr-hes-not-too-hard-astros/

    I wouldn't normally look at wapo, but I made an exception
     
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  4. msn

    msn Member

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    Can someone please post the Rosenthal article that just came out about the MLB/RedSox findings?
     
  5. msn

    msn Member

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    Sorry, it's a Kaplan article.
     
  6. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    https://theathletic.com/1690501/202...-is-aware-of-and-disagrees-with-mlb-findings/

    A lawyer for the Red Sox on Friday morning suggested that MLB already has made a conclusion on whether the team in 2018 violated baseball’s ban on in-game use of electronics. The attorney declined to admit that the Red Sox illicitly stole signs using electronics.

    “We do not admit that,” Lauren Moskowitz of Cravath, Swaine & Moore told the judge when he asked her, “Do you admit or not that the Red Sox violated the rules?”

    The interaction occurred during a one hour, 47-minute oral argument on whether lawsuits brought by daily fantasy sports (DFS) contestants over the sign-stealing scandal should be dismissed. The Red Sox, along with the Houston Astros, and MLB are defendants. The arguments were made telephonically.

    “That’s interesting,” Judge Jed Rakoff replied. “So you think the commissioner of baseball was just off base in your view?”

    MLB has yet to issue a report or prospective discipline against the Red Sox after sources told The Athletic that the team used its video replay room illegally during its 2018 championship campaign.

    Nevertheless, Moskowitz replied, “Your Honor, I think that there are distinctions between what the Red Sox believe occurred and what the commissioner found. And I think that certainly they’re entitled to disagree that that activity happened at the club level. Certainly, we did find on certain occasions in 2017, that this electronic device was used to communicate sign information.”

    MLB in January punished the Astros for electronically stealing signs, and a report on the Red Sox is expected to come. The team fired 2018 World Series manager Alex Cora, but did so citing the transgressions MLB found Cora to be involved with while he was the Astros’ bench coach in 2017.

    The defendants in the case all have argued that they do not owe the DFS players a duty to produce a cheating-free game.

    The “idea that all baseball teams or all sports teams are making an implicit representation about compliance with… the quote-unquote rules, that is a difficult standard to hold all sports to,” Moskowitz said.

    Rakoff struggled with that though, asking if bettors would have been entitled to compensation in the 1919 Black Sox scandal.

    MLB lawyer John Hardiman replied, “When you get involved with sports, you know some things go wrong. You can’t predict things. And one of those things is, unfortunately, rules violations.

    “If there had been some representation made to you, by baseball, or by somebody, listen, ‘this game isn’t bribed today,’” he said. “Maybe there’s some sort of claim.”

    Rakoff then asked, “Is there an implicit representation that by baseball, especially since 1919, that the games are honest, played by the rules and so forth?”

    Hardiman replied, “Having rules and the enforcement that happens certainly indicates that baseball is trying to do that. However, in terms of that being translated into some sort of legal obligation to fans who are disappointed when the enforcement of rules is not done as quickly as they want or as effectively as they want; no, I don’t think there is any legal claim to that.”

    David Golub, the lawyer for the DFS contestants said at the end of the hearing, “This concept that …you can run a tournament, and that the material information upon which the tournament is based, is without disclosure to the participants, corrupted or compromised or whatever word you want to use to render those statistics meaningless…the concept that’s not actionable” is not correct.

    While Rakoff, who made clear he is a baseball fan, pressured the MLB side, he also equally if not more so questioned the DFS side, asking if they had the standing to sue and whether they expressly relied on MLB’s and the teams’ statements they abided by the rules.

    “Which of your clients relied on which specific statement?” the judge asked.

    Golub replied every plaintiff relied on the sport’s representations that it followed the rules.

    Rakoff promised a decision on whether to dismiss the cases by April 15.

    There are also a handful of cases brought by season ticket holders in Texas state court, and one brought by former MLB pitcher Mike Bolsinger in California state court. They’re not as far along as the DFS litigation, which is the first sign-stealing related lawsuit to get before a judge.
     
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  7. msn

    msn Member

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    Thanks JR.
     
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  8. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    OK, have to admit this is pretty funny...

     
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  9. Newlin

    Newlin Member

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    Well, at least people have forgotten about the Astros scandal.

    For now.
     
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  10. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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  11. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    Someone in KFAN Minnesota sports radio just said, “I can’t wait for Covid-19 to end so we can get back to hating the Houston Astros”
     
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  12. King1

    King1 Contributing Member

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    That person is a waste of oxygen
     
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  13. msn

    msn Member

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    Houston Astros. Rent-free since November 2019.
     
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  14. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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  15. jim1961

    jim1961 Member

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    Rob Manfred says Red Sox investigation is complete, but he's too busy with coronavirus to write report

    ... we will get a Boston report out before we resume play.”

    https://sports.yahoo.com/rob-manfre...report-mlb-coronavirus-044621490.html?src=rss


    Cant someone else write the damn report? Is that really supposed to be an excuse? There isnt anyone else at the MLB office that can pick up a pen or type on a keyboard? Send me the facts and i'll write the damn thing. So, if play doesnt resume until next year, Boston gets a pass until then? Thats f#cked up!
     
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  16. Major

    Major Member

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    Do you really want the report released when no one is paying attention or cares? When there are no players to be interviewed? I'd much rather it come out the week before the season starts when all focus is on baseball.
     
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  17. jim1961

    jim1961 Member

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    Really good point. I want both. A statement of guilt for now, and the actual punishment a week before MLB starts up again :D
     
  18. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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  19. marks0223

    marks0223 Astros STILL 2017 Champions
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  20. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    https://theathletic.com/1714128/202...lb-explicitly-exonerated-me-in-sign-stealing/

    Houston Astros owner Jim Crane wrote in a legal filing on Monday that Major League Baseball “exonerated” him in the team’s sign-stealing scandal and that he is thus immune from a lawsuit emanating from his team’s actions.

    His contention came as part of a series of legal filings from the Astros seeking to either move former MLB pitcher Mike Bolsinger’s lawsuit out of California state court and to Texas, or dismiss it. Bolsinger names Crane as a defendant, and the former Toronto Blue Jay’s lawyers recently served notice on the Houstonian that they planned to depose him on June 1. Crane’s response states that he bore no culpability for the sign-stealing scandal that rocked the sport.

    “I was not involved in any alleged rules violations by the Astros,” Crane wrote in his declaration, or legal statement, which is attached to the motion to quash the summons for deposition and move the case to Texas (or dismiss entirely). “Major League Baseball conducted an investigation into potential rules violations by the Astros. That report explicitly exonerated me and stated that I was unaware of and had no involvement in any rules violations by the Astros.”

    The Jan. 13 MLB report on the Astros’ sign stealing does not use the word “exonerated” in discussing Crane. MLB commissioner Rob Manfred wrote of the owner, “At the outset, I also can say our investigation revealed absolutely no evidence that Jim Crane, the owner of the Astros, was aware of any of the conduct described in this report. Crane is extraordinarily troubled and upset by the conduct of members of his organization, fully supported my investigation, and provided unfettered access to any and all information requested.”

    Asked whether it agreed with Crane’s depiction that the report exonerated him, MLB wrote to The Athletic that “all of our comments about the investigation are included in the report.”

    Bolsinger has not pitched in the majors since an appearance for the Blue Jays in Houston on Aug. 4, 2017. Toronto allowed 16 runs that day, four of which were charged to Bolsinger. He faced eight batters and retired only one, allowing four hits and three walks. That was the game in which trash can bangs could be heard the most, according to research from Astros fan Tony Adams at SignStealingScandal.com. The Astros’ sign stealing involved trash can banging to notify the hitter what pitch was coming.

    Bolsinger, who was demoted after the game, blames the sign stealing for ruining his career. He is seeking unspecified damages and for the Astros to return the roughly $31 million in bonuses from their World Series title, and for the money to go to charities.

    The Astros in a separate motion to dismiss filing described the pitcher’s financial request as pandering.

    “His contention that, should he be awarded ‘restitution’ in the amount of $31 million — a staggering sum he bases on purported ‘post-season bonuses earned from (the Astros) winning the 2017 World Series’ — he would donate a portion of that windfall to ‘charities in Los Angeles’ is both pandering and legally insufficient.”

    Bolsinger’s lawyer, Ben Meiselas of Geragos & Geragos (the same firm that represents Colin Kaepernick), wrote in an email that Crane’s motion opened up a Pandora’s box because it now made MLB eligible for discovery.

    On if he agreed the MLB report exonerated the owner, Meiselas wrote, “I don’t, and I don’t think the players and fans do either, and since the Houston Astros have made the Commissioner’s report the focal point of their motion, I see no other option but to set the depositions for those involved in the investigation.

    “The report is highly suspect in many ways which will be the subject of discovery. Commissioner Manfred has not exactly gotten high grades for [h]is handling of any of this, to put it mildly.”

    MLB’s investigative materials are already subject to a discovery request in a lawsuit brought by daily fantasy sports contestants in New York federal court.

    The Astros in their Bolsinger legal filings swing at his contention his career failed because of the Minute Maid Park appearance.

    “Plaintiff, who struggled throughout the 2017 Baseball season — going 0-3 with a 6.31 ERA in 11 appearances — speculates in his lawsuit that alleged infractions caused his poor appearance on the mound in Houston, harming his career,” the team’s lawyers argued in court papers. “Plaintiff wants to have a California judge and jury literally call ball and strikes, and award him money damages based on rank conjecture about what might have happened to him in Houston on August 4, 2017 due to alleged rules violations he speculates may have occurred that day.”

    The Astros lawyers also question how important the sign stealing really was to the outcome of games, and frequently preceded the phrase with the term alleged or put it in quotation marks.

    “Major League Baseball (‘MLB’) investigated alleged rule violations by the Astros related to sign-stealing, resulting in a January 13, 2020 report in which the Commissioner of Baseball expressly found that ‘it is impossible to determine whether the (Astros’) conduct actually impacted the results on the field,’” the Astros argue in their motion. “The MLB did not conclude that sign-stealing violations occurred in every game or even most at-bats in the 2017 season.”
     
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