This is the summer. We are negotiating contracts, not arguing about who should be getting more minutes, and who is to blame. This is about negotiating. This thread is about Shandon's value versus what Dan Fegan will ask for. This is for RealGM wannabe's, not homey sensitivities for the love of Shandon's hard work and quiet character. This is the Rocket's future. Tough questions lie ahead. Rate this player's monetary value and right to start!!! I am helping the discussion start by showing Shandon's playoff record, since there was so much hype surrounding that when we got him. I have scraped the boxscores out of the records, and provided the original links below. We can see; the man disappears for entire series, as he does with the Rockets for entire games. The stats here prove that Shandon needs mismatches to produce consistently. This is a playoff statistical fact! Sure, many value points do not show in the box scores. But why do many say Shandon should be showing up more in the box score. There is nothing to indicate he ever will...so how do you rate that? How do you rate hustle that does not show up in the boxscores? As a GM how do you pay that, and do you look for a better starter? Questions About Shandon's Value <ul>[*]Did the media over-exaggerate Shandon based on 1 1/2 playoff series?? The Sacramento 1999 and the second half of the Houston 1998.[*]Do bench players who get to exploit mismatches once, surprise the media and make them think this player can do that all the time?[*]Does the media then convince fans (especially homey's) they are right?[*]If the player then becomes a starter and continues the same box score trends according to history, does the media then correct itself, or do they blame their inaccurate projections on the new coach and point guard?[/list] Well, the last question is easy to answer. The Much Hyped Shandon Playoff Record It is clear to me looking at his playoff stats, that the media does only remember Shandon's big series. He had 1 and 1/2 good series in 3 years. Play particular notice to how he disappears for entire series when the opposing team has a good shooting guard. Against Drexler 1998, Utah went fast and forced Drexler to guard Russell, if you recall. <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba/skn/sknplsc.htm">1997 Playoffs</a> OK, so this is his first year. He does little. Especially against equally young guys in Eddie Jones and Kobe in the LA series. <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba/98play/98plsc.htm">1998 Playoffs</a> Shandon's best series was the turn around against us. And I recall vividly Utah switched in the middle of the playoffs to a fast tempo line-up with Stockton/Eisley, Shandon and Russell to force Drexler to guard Russell and Elie to guard Shandon. Thus, Shandon got a mismatch against a slow runner. The rest of the playoffs you will see how Shandon can completely disappear for a whole series. <a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/playoffs/bracket/index.html">1999 Playoffs</a> At the bottom of each Recap, you will see a Stat link for the box scores. The Kings series Shandon was major. Against who? Abdul Wahad and Jon Barry, as Vernon Maxwell guards Russell? Go figure! Against Portland, he disappears against their tall, defensive bench. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 20, 2001).]
Ahhh, technicalities! OK, maybe breakout series was a bad term to use. What I meant by "breakout" was that he basically became a more "noticed" player after the 1998 series with Houston. He put himself on the map, so to speak. Maybe my anger towards him was magnified because he kept getting easy layups on open cuts to the hole against my team! You are correct, Russell was receiving high praise too, but we were spurned often by Shandon, and it seemed at the worst times too. But I remember the praise Shandon received more, because Russell was already an established/accomplished player from the year or two prior. Shandon was the newbie, playing in the shadow of Horny. ------------------ HEAD KNIGHT: We are now... no longer the Knights Who Say 'Ni'. KNIGHTS OF NI: Ni! Shh! HEAD KNIGHT: Shh! We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv'. [This message has been edited by HOOP-T (edited April 20, 2001).]
As far as this question goes, I think that the 3 guard lineup is more effective. With Moochie in the game, at his best he is distributing the ball as well as anyone in the league and slicing up the defense like a hot knife through butter. At his worst, he is shooting poorly but not making very many mistakes. The guy is a solid playmaker, through and through. With Shandon, at best, you get some good defense and some scoring punch if he is hitting his shots. At worst you get a guy who plays good defense, misses his shots, loses the ball when he tries to put it on the floor, and has difficulty finishing at times. He is just too prone to disappear. With Mooch, it seems like he contributes something everytime he is in the game, and rarely takes anything away from the current play. ------------------ President of the Anal Retentive School for Jerks Hey, I wanted to be president of something, and I swear everyone took every other presidential position already. [This message has been edited by RunninRaven (edited April 20, 2001).]
i've said it a thousand times... one man cannot a defense make, but one man CAN an offense break. shandn's strongest point is, yes, his defense. however, the price for defensive specialists is quite low. here's a list of guys i consider to be all defense, little-to-no offense players. check out what they make... tariq abdul wahad: $4.5 million per mario elie: $550,000 per stacey augmon: $550,000 per derrick mckey: $5.4 million per tariq has has been a MAJOR BUST and his contract is not worth his production. derrick mckey is in the back end of a contract, so this is the maximum he will earn. that leaves, well, you guys can read. mario elie and stacey augmon. and mario can actually hit an open jumper to go with his defense. in shandn's defense, he IS still relatively young. therefore, i would not suggest the $550,000 contract for him - EVEN THOUGH HE PLAYS LIKE A $550,000 PLAYER. what does he deserve? probably around $2.0 - 3.0 million per for 2-3 years. and those numbers make me want to puke. he's terrible. sign him to those numbers and trade his ass out of houston. we have no need for a guy who can't hit an open shot, yet wants major minutes and major money. shandn, you're a bench player. a 10 minute breather. and if you dont' want this 2-3 million dollars...hit the road. ------------------ Lt. Roastabotch reporting for duty! [This message has been edited by verse (edited April 20, 2001).]
Considering the team is young, and that Shandon could be a more effective player when Steve becomes a more effective point, I'd say early bird would be fine. Unfortunately, the league is all about timing... and this is one of the few times in the next 5 years that the Rockets will have cap space. Therefore, Shandon isn't that big of a priority. p.s. verse, you're really really really stretching. Augmon's contract is cheap b/c it's been subsidized by the Rockets. Elie is like 53 years old. Try again. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
Shandon's 1st Year of Playoffs--1997 Notice he ends up with more turnovers than steals. <pre><font face="courier"> Game MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA OFF-DEF-TOT AST PF ST TO PTS LAC 17 4-6 2-2 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 10 LAC 16 1-1 2-2 0 1 1 3 4 0 0 4 LAC 15 0-2 0-2 4 2 6 0 2 1 0 0 LAL 17 2-4 3-4 1 3 4 1 0 1 1 8 LAL 11 0-0 0-0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 LAL game is missing LAL 11 3-3 0-0 0 1 1 1 1 1 0 6 LAL 9 0-0 2-2 0 0 0 0 2 0 2 2 Hou 22 5-7 0-0 4 1 5 1 4 1 2 11 Hou 16 0-1 2-2 1 0 1 1 2 0 1 2 Hou 16 2-5 0-0 1 2 3 1 1 1 2 5 Hou 18 2-7 4-4 4 5 9 0 0 1 0 8 Hou 14 0-2 0-0 1 2 3 0 0 1 2 0 Hou 12 1-4 1-2 1 2 3 0 0 0 0 3 CHI 19 1-3 0-0 0 2 2 1 2 0 2 2 CHI 26 2-4 0-0 1 1 2 1 3 2 0 5 CHI DNP - DEATH IN FAMILY CHI DNP - DEATH IN FAMILY CHI 13 1-2 0-0 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 2 CHI 26 2-10 4-6 1 2 3 0 1 1 0 8 </pre></font> [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 20, 2001).]
Shandons fate was obvious to me from before the season. HE IS NOT A ROCKET!! he dosnt deserve to be a rocket. just like people dig into Cato they should dig into Anderson. the only reason we dont is because we only pay 2.5 million for him. 2.5 million is a hell of a lit of money you know. i think we should find more value for our dollars elsewhere. anderson has proved that his shining moments were much like Catos shining moments. FEW AND FAR BETWEEN. the rockets might be willing to give him a raise, but Im not. 3 mill/year MAX. i would rather sell him off. he is of more value to another team than to us. hell he is of more value to us if he is on another team as well. also anyone that thinks that Cat should be our 6th man is FRIKIN NUTZ the dude has been scoring 20+ as a starter. there are only 25 or so in the league that can do that. hell Steve couldnt even average 20 as a starter. shandon could be a 6 man, but he plays more like an IR superstar. if you give him money he will become Cato part II peace hey guess what, "Its beer Friday" ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball www.hanta-force.com
Shandon's "Breakout" Season Produced Playoff Inconsistency/Turnovers <pre><font face="courier"> Game MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA OFF-DEF-TOT AST PF ST TO PTS Hou 16 2-6 0-2 4 1 5 2 0 0 1 5 Hou 18 4-6 1-2 1 0 1 1 2 0 1 10 Hou 17 2-5 0-0 0 4 4 1 0 0 0 4 Hou 25 5-9 5-8 3 4 7 1 1 1 2 15 Hou 16 1-2 0-0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 2 UTAH figures out how to stop Drexler by playing Russell/Shandon WOW!!! Some breakout series that was against 53-yr Old Elie SA 17 2-3 2-2 1 2 3 3 2 0 0 6 SA 15 2-2 0-0 1 0 1 1 2 0 3 4 SA 21 2-7 2-2 2 2 4 0 2 1 1 6 SA 13 1-3 1-2 1 1 2 1 0 0 2 3 SA 13 1-2 0-0 0 2 2 1 1 1 1 2 Against Spurs, back to mediocrity And NOTE: Shandon has 7 TOs; Stockton had 6 the whole series LAL 25 3-8 4-6 5 6 11 2 2 0 3 10 LAL 20 4-6 0-0 2 1 3 1 1 0 2 8 LAL 21 6-9 1-2 0 2 2 1 1 0 1 13 LAL 15 1-1 0-0 0 1 1 2 1 0 2 2 Against young Lakers, Shandon gets more playing time & more turnovers Game 3 Del Harris forced ball movement, taking Stockton/Malone out of game. as Chris Morris had 15 pts and Russell had 17. CHI 16 3-5 0-0 1 2 3 1 3 0 3 6 CHI 24 4-7 4-5 0 2 2 0 1 0 1 12 CHI 21 3-6 1-2 1 2 3 0 4 0 2 8 CHI 26 2-5 3-3 1 4 5 0 5 1 2 7 CHI 23 3-7 0-0 2 0 2 0 2 0 3 6 CHI 16 2-4 1-1 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 5 Again, what's up with the turnover when everything goes through Stockton/Malone </pre></font> [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 20, 2001).]
If his playoff experience is so vital, I think we just need to remind ourselves of that critical game in which Shandon missed point blank layups against the Bulls. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
1999 Playoffs--Shandon Gets National Recognition for Beating Kings but, Portland makes him inconsistent again. <pre><font face="courier"> Game MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA OFF-OT AST PF ST TO PTS SAC 24 1-6 0-0 1-4 1 1 0 2 2 SAC 16 2-4 4-6 0-3 1 1 0 2 8 SAC 36 5-8 6-8 0-3 2 0 1 1 17 SAC 30 7-9 0-1 1-4 0 4 1 2 16 SAC 31 7-10 2-2 3-6 2 2 1 2 16 National Media attention as he plays major role is a comeback win down 1-2 against Kings. Por 23 2-6 4-4 1-4 3 4 1 0 8 Por 30 6-13 2-3 1-7 2 4 0 2 16 Por 24 1-5 1-2 0-4 0 6 1 2 3 Por 28 2-8 1-2 1-3 2 6 1 1 5 Por 21 3-5 4-6 0-1 3 3 0 0 11 Por 26 1-3 0-0 0-2 0 3 0 0 2 After all the media attention, Portland makes Shandon inconsistent again, as Utah gets beat. </pre></font> [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 20, 2001).]
In summary, what is all the hype about great playoffs? They were just media stories looking for a fresh twist to the post season! The guy had one good series against the Kings. Otherwise, those are Shandon Rocket's numbers all over the place. And they are below season average, anyhow. What is all the Hype?
I think a rookie 2nd-round pick getting 20 minutes a game in the finals for a 64-win team speaks for itself. Why don't you post Mobley's playoff numbers for us? Basically what you're trying to show us with all these numbers is that he played a lot of minutes for a team that had great playoff success 3 years in a row? Figuring Shandon's salary is easy -- take whatever you would offer him per year, and then add to that what he missed out on the past 2 years for doing the Rockets a favor. ------------------ "I'll be gettin real drunk and making fun of everybody"
And Mario Elie played a lot of minutes for a playoff team as well. And Utah was reknowned for having a weak bench; that's why they never advanced like their record shows. Malone and Stockton never miss regular season games. No injuries and two superstars makes you consistent. All I'm trying to ask, it what is the hype about Shandon's playoffs. There is no statistical evidence that Rudy's offense is making Shandon inconsistent like Shandon and Fegan are trying to tell the media. Serioulsy TheFreak, As a GM, what you are saying is we owe him and Fegan backpay for doing us a favor, and should now make up for that. There are arguments for that. But you didn't say how much he is worth, discounting the back pay.
You don't win 64 games with your stars being 36-37 and having a weak bench. Never advanced? They made the finals twice, for crying out loud. What more do you want? Okay, so they were one game from going all the way. Stockton's minutes were not much in those years. Eisley would ALWAYS come in at the 6 minute mark of the first quarter. Malone, maybe, played major minutes, but I'm guessing he was in the 36 minute range. Stockton couldn't have been much over 30 a game. I would say a guy of Shandon's caliber is worth around 4 mil a year -- great for chemistry, iron man (never gets hurt, can play the ENTIRE game without breaking a sweat), great defense. I would say if he doesn't improve at all, I give him 4 mil a year. That's without what I feel he is owed for sacrificing to come here. I would not guarantee him a starting spot though. ------------------ "I'll be gettin real drunk and making fun of everybody"
I'll give Shandon his Early Bird easily. If he wants more, you have to cut him loose (unless he wants another small contract, and wait for our Bird Rights). He counts for 2.86 mill unrenounced. That, I feel is definitely a reasonable sum. We definitely need a good defender under 6'8'', hell, we still need some good defenders over 6'8''. Shandon is a good value at just 2.86 mill against the cap. If we don't keep Shandon we'll still need a good swingman defender. The guys in the draft are mainly bigger SFs (Battier and such), and wouldn't be as effective on an SG. Bruce Bowen will cost more than Shandon, if we could attain him at all. There aren't any others that come to mind. Ron Artest would fill the role, but that would mean we'd have to make a trade. Shandon could probably be an effective 6th man like in Utah, running all over tiring starters. If he wants more than Early Bird, which is what Cat got, cut him loose. If that's all he'll require, barring something crazy (like Webber along with another impact guy), I don't see why not. ------------------ "That's been a lifelong dream of mine." -Vince Carter, after laying it in on a breakaway, much to the Vancouver crowd's displeasure.
TheFreak, So, I'll put you down as a RealGM that would pay Shandon $4m + $4m backpay (over the course of the contract GMs must be shrewd. This is our biggest Summer for free agents and the Dream windfall. Are you really going to pay Shandon more than Cuttino!!! to include your backpay??? [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 20, 2001).]
TheFreak: Stockton, Malone, Hornacek, Russell, Eisley, Antoine Carr, Thurl Bailey and Greg Ostertag had more to do w/ those seasons than Shandon Anderson did. Maybe I'm exaggerating about Thurl Bailey. It was a great signing, merely b/c it was humiliating to the Salt Lakers and b/c of the Utah - Houston rivalry. Fans of old teams get immediately attached to whatever youth walks around their arena, just b/c they're afraid of the inevitable breakdown of the ancients. Jazz fans freaked b/c: a) Shandon is/was young. b) This was the billionth time that a player had refused the Jazz in free agency, furthering the notion that African Norwegians aren't/weren't comfortable in Utah. That doesn't mean that Houston fans should value Shandon in an inverse coorelation w/ Utards hate for the guy. He left Utah b/c he wasn't comfortable here. That makes Houston as unique as the cities in the US hosting the 260 million other people in our country. Big whoop... Houston's special. heyp, To overpay or 'backpay' Shandon isn't good business. Shandon was pursued during the reign of the old guard/cusp of the new. Hakeem and Charles were still the focal point of the offense. Those days are over, and to backpay Shandon is to give tribute to an old guard that isn't the direction of this team anymore. He was brought in for a few more runs. Those runs didn't happen... and I would think that Starks and Manning (Manning is more influential for the Jazz than Shandon is for the Rockets, btw) wouldn't get locked up just b/c they took a few rides of glory. Blah, blah, blah (I can't think b/c my wife is yelling on the phone to her deaf grandma); anyway, if Shandon is a good fit for the Rockets, sign him up. If he's not, and currently: a) Shandon plays out of position. b) He won't reclaim the starting SG slot w/ a healthy Cuttino in play. Then I have to assume there are better fits for the Rockets. Hopefully they won't make mistakes out of misdirected 'loyalty'. Shandon wanted to compete. There were two other teams that pursued him(other than the Jazz): the Pacers and the Rockets. The Rockets offered a starting spot w/ Dream and Chuck. He signed in Houston. So be it. The Rockets don't owe Shandon anything, no more than he owed the Jazz. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
Heb and HeyP, For me the Shandon decision is a balancing act. On the one hand he is a great defender which we really need (opposition PG still have season highs if you are still listening Steve (or as i like to call him Excel and Packs bit*h). The other positives aren't so obviously, he moves well without the ball and runs the floor great. I suppose what hooked me originally was the post ups against the Bulls and the solid defense on Jordan while Russell was resting. But again that series hurts his positives with the blown lay-ups in Chicago which may have cost Karla and Choir boy a title. There are several solid arguments against him returning, some of which have already been mentioned He is playing out of position, he is 2 guard and will never again see major minutes at the 2 spot in Htown, Cat is a Star and will not be displaced. He cannot play the 3 spot for major minutes for a whole season if we want to compete for somethig more than lotto balls. He is damn inconsistent offensively, my prediction is if you gave him 40plus minutes at the 2 spot for a significant amount of games he would still be inconsistant on offense. For me this is a sign of someone who has lots of offensive limitations. Turnovers, one suspects these would only increase with more minutes at the 2 spot cause his ball handling is soooo terrrible and his limitations will make him force things. Fegan will want lots both because he believes Shandon can play (one suspects both he and shandon think he should be getting cat minutes) and because of the whole the rockets owe you thing. My gut feeling with Shandon for a while is he just doesn't fit in here, HP example of Rudy going with Mooch in the 3 guard line-up is an example. All in all i think Shandon has some great qualities but really doesn't merit and isn't going to get more than 20-25 minutes a game here i Houston, so was does that work out to in salary surely nothing more than 3-4 million a year. However, There is no way he deserves the money Cat is getting, Cat is a Stud and Shandon is nothing more than a great team player and a serviceable but inconsistant role player. So whatever Cat is on minus 30% is about the maximum I would pay for Shandon. Smeg PS Heb, tell your wifes mum to get a hearing aid cause you shouldn't be disturbed. ------------------ "Repression never did me any harm (I finally ceased to include "stop masturbating" as one of my guilt ridden New Year's resolutions, but that's a different topic)." Achebe - programmer by day, Mrs Palmers Husband by night
