I only learned this browsing through some Nets boards recently. Was intrigued by his Reddick-like potential as well, but Reddick is actually an underrated defender. He's around average.
Pull up any defensive metric. Literally, any. I'm comfortable with you cherry picking any defensive stat. More importantly we have watched Gordon's defense against elite teams. Have you watched Harris play defense? I actually thought he was a better defender than my eye test, and was shocked to find out the stats say he's even worse. You can't be basing your assessment of his defense on the team's offense minus defense and when there are 4 other players on the floor. The Nets hide him, like we do Harden, by placing him on the worst defender. Still, the team's defense was significantly worse with Harris on the floor. Harris cannot guard a single Warriors rotation player, and his 15ppg (which he wouldn't even average on a contender) won't make up for that. You cannot even dream of hiding Harris and Harden at the 2 positions with the most explosive scorers in the league. This is why Melo is at home and Ryno is in Phoenix. It's impossible to score enough to hide 2 defensive targets. We're not going to do that to ourselves again. It's a pointless exercise against a team with 3 potent scorers. If our goal was to get to the 2nd round I'd be with you. The only goal worth pursuing is defeating the Warriors. Do you want Harris or EG when we play the Warriors? Can you go back and watch the last 5 minutes of game 5? Maybe you've forgotten what Gordon is capable of when he's having fun. Dude. You are talking about Harris' best season and Gordon's worst season. I'm no fan of Gordon this season, but that's not a defensible statement. Harris is a materially better shooter than Gordon, but Gordon is a FAR better defender. Harris is 6'6 with a 6'6 wingspan, Gordon is 6'4 with a 6'9 wingspan. There is not even a size advantage for Harris, otherwise I'd gladly pay to swap a smaller Gordon for a larger one. They are not comparable players and especially for a team looking to win it all, it's Gordon 10 times out of 10. His experience, familiarity and 2-way qualities are more valuable to us right now. Also, we are in absolutely no need for more offense. None. Ravaged by injuries, we can conjure up an elite offense. Why would we create an imbalanced roster? If anything, I'd rather give up Gordon for a bigger defender who can keep defenses honest with an above average 3pt shot.
@Mathloom Is there anything you have heard in detail about the players in Chicago who rebelled against Boylen when he took over? I was stunned when the entire team refused to play for him by saying you are no Popovich. I believe Boylen is trying to create a more positive culture there. I wonder if Portis was one of the vocal ones against him. I have my doubts about that since he is a hard nosed two way player, but the Nikola punch is hard to forget. I hope that there is a small chance at acquiring him if he is showing discipline and maturity. The Rockets definitely could use his talent. Apache and Deuce have quite rightly pointed out his strengths as a player.
I don't know anything everyone else doesn't know. IIRC Lavine, Parker and Holiday were the ones most active in a group chat to boycott practice. RoLo wasn't happy either but asked them to show up anyway. I like Portis' game. He strikes me as someone who can turn into a very very solid role player, but needs the right amount of patience and winning culture. Would be a great get, though I don't know if he does much other than ease Tucker and Nene's minutes. I could be wrong.
Thanks, I didn't know about any names regarding Boylen, although I assumed Jabari was the instigator. I like your comments about Portis. I do think he can be a very good role player, if he keeps focusing on working hard as a team player.
Portis is getting ready to be a RFA. They already have Lauri at the starting PF spot. The team is a SELLER right now. I don't know how they feel about Portis. So, if the Rockets have a "puncher's chance" to get him, why not?
Let's get right into this. I think you would agree, when judging defense, there are two key factors: 1) The Eye Test - How do they look? Are they smart? How are their instincts? Do they understand defensive assignments? How's their help defense? How are they on 50/50 plays? What's their attitude like? Do they do little things that don't show up on the stat-sheets (i.e. deflections, box outs, double teams, 50/50 plays, etc). Things that aren't really measurable. 2) Raw Data - Things that are measurable. Take Ryno, for instance. He looks terrible. Slow, can't switch, zero athleticism. He looks really, really bad. What do they numbers say? Our team was something like 5 PPG worse defensively with him on the floor. Plus, let's not forget about his infamous, team-sinking Game 7 -12 performance. Guess what? The numbers back up what your eyes are telling you. Atrocious. What about Melo? Again, slow, can't switch, dwindled athleticism mixed in with some general timidness. Utah won a playoff series last year partially because of the way they were picking on Melo. Unfortunately, as we all know, nothing changed when he signed here. Just more of the same until the partial divorce. Our defensive rating improved 11 points by removing him from the rotation. Again, numbers backing up what your eyes are telling you. Where your argument goes off the rails is when you lump a player like Harris into the same mix as players like Melo and Ryno, and make claims like Brooklyn's defense is significantly worse with him on the floor. There's no tangible evidence to back up anything in that sentence. You can look at either last year or this year's Nets teams. There's little to no on/off court impact defensively. So, again, I have to challenge you: where are you getting this data? The icing on the cake is you're making all of these claims about EG's superiority yet Harris has a better defensive rating. I'm not making the argument Harris is some sort of fantastic defender. Nobody is out here saying he's Gary Payton. He is a smart player, though. He tries hard, has good instincts, knows his scouting reports and doesn't noticeably hurt you. Eye test, data or otherwise. His impact offensively would more than compensate for any disappointment you might find defensively. And offensively? I disagree with your assessment that his addition would be unnecessary. Stating the obvious: our teams shoots a lot of three-pointers and we're merely middle-of-the-road at it. Surrounding Harden/CP3/CC with fantastic shooters is and has always been the goal. Harris would fit in nicely. He's lethal in catch-and-shoot and coming off screens. He's fearless and knows how to put the ball on the floor. My face lights up at the thought of him in a Rockets jersey playing off the ball. Not to mention, another goal you should always have is to find players that either currently are or are likely to outplay the value of their contract. Harris at $8M/year is one of the best bargain contracts in the league. He's a stand-up guy with a great attitude and he’s improved every year he’s been in the league. He’s an absolute steal at $8M. Also, I have nothing but love for EG. Loved the signing since day one and have always been a supporter. I’m just calling it like it is: his numbers are way down, and we have a decision to make with him in the next year or so. That having been said, I still trust him and going back to the “eye test”, his defense looks better than the numbers indicate. He’s tough, knows where to be and fits the system we run. These are good qualities and we’re lucky to have him. I just fear he might continue to regress, and having someone in the pipeline to supplement or potentially replace his contributions as our pseudo-sixth man and occasional 2-3 scorer isn’t a bad thought to consider. I get your point and you’ve seen the novel I just typed out. Feel free to respond if you like, although it’s going get lost in the abyss in this thread. Very hard to have substantive talks in a thread like this. We don’t know each other obviously, but it would have been fun to have this talk over a beer and pick your brain in person.
Joe Harris has a -1.4 DBPM. He has been a negative his entire career in DBPM. His DRPM is -1.24. While he's on the floor the team gives up 115 points for each 100 possessions. I am not a fan of individual defensive stats, but when you rank in the bottom 10 at your position for every single one while using smarts and effort, and at the same time the eye test confirms you're a poor defender... there is no argument. At his highest level of effort and with all his "iq" Joe Harris is an atrocious defender. I told you man, go ahead and cherry pick any stat. No one is going to agree on the eye test. We all already agree he gives his best effort. But you can give effort and still be terrible, which is a sad situation, but sympathy doesn't change the truth of what's going on. I think you are confusing effort with success here. For me, the fact that he has reached his effort ceiling and still can't muster up decent defense is a red flag. Every western playoff team would force him into an iso and torch him. His 10-15 points won't make up for that. Nor do we need more offense. Nor can we ever have him and Harden on the floor at the same time. I think he's a good guy with 1 all NBA skill and a couple other mediocre ones. He's totally NBA-incapable (almost a 0 out of 50%) in the other half of the game. I wish character and effort always resulted in points, but unfortunately it's not the case. FWIW I also like the things you like about him. As a GM, I could never have him on my team when we lack a defensive wing, and then a backup C, and we are simultaneously looking to unload salary. Not a good fit imo.
Portis would be an amazing get for us. He can fit in the starting lineup as a PF, moving PJ to SF. Off the bench, he can spell both PJ and Capela. He would be a great small ball C, as he can hit the 3 and rebound well. If we are convinced that Chris Paul will be healthy enough to give us as a shot at the title, I would happily send a first or two seconds for Portis. Looking at other teams that will look for assets for their expirings, Washington should be of interest to us. Both Markieff Morris and Jeff Green will be highly desirable by teams that want to make deep playoff runs. I also expect Memphis to make JaMychal Green available at some point. In an ideal world, we would get Portis and Green for 3 2nds combined.
Wish it was Melo, MCW, cash and a first+second for Portis. High hopes, I know. But, I’ll take just MCW being off the squad for now. Morey has a little bit of time to find some front court help but he better get on it soon bc PJ is playing way too many minutes.
One reason I come back to Bobby Portis is he is a RFA (like Oubre) and if the Rockets are going to give up a 1st round pick, they need to know they will have the player's services beyond this year. Unlike someone like Markieff Morris who we have mentioned. While he is a good fit, he is a UFA after this season and a flight risk. @Nook, I know you said the Bulls are difficult to deal with, but do you have a handle on how they view Bobby Portis right now? Especially with RFA coming up?
It is really difficult to know how the Bulls feel about Bobby Portis right now because they have changed coaches in about as extreme a manner as possible. Hoiberg and Boylen could not be more different. You couple that with the fact Portis has missed so much time this season. Six weeks ago Portis was viewed as expendable with Carter and Markkanen taking over the PF and C spots. Since then, Carter has had a couple issues with Boylen. My personal opinion is that Portis will be available and the Bulls will try to deal him. I will ask around, but right now the general feeling within the Bulls circle is that no one knows what the future holds. Even discussions about Foreman leaving and Paxson retiring. My gut is that the Bulls do not change, Paxson will be back..... Foreman if he wants, and the Bulls will sign a more defensive minded coach and roll with the younger players and try to win. Which means Portis is available, possibly for a draft pick or another younger player the Bulls like.
@Nook, thanks for responding. I really feel like Portis should be on the radar. Young, RFA, can play the 4/5 with range shooting. Feels like a really good fit in Houston in MDA's offense, tbh.
If he is healthy and the cost is reasonable, he would be a very good fit. He is very active defensively.
If he is healthy and the cost is reasonable, he would be a very good fit. He is very active defensively.
Rose is super upset that Thibs got fired. May be an opportunity for us. Also, LOL @ Hollinger's analysis for how it impacts Minny's projected wins...
Trade Gordon, Knight and Chriss for Otto Porter. Porter makes a lot, but our cap is pretty much locked in with CP3. Otto has been in a less-than-ideal situation with Brooks in Washington. D'Antoni and Harden could unlock his potential, he's at least a super-Ariza, and possibly a low-end star. We need frontcourt/wing help.
We can definitely agree on one thing: neither of us are fans of individual defensive stats, and likely for good reason. Case in point: defensive rating. You mentioned how the Nets give up 115 points per 100 possessions with Harris on the court. According to that metric, EG (117) and Rivers (118) are worse. Yet I think we would be both agree their defense looks good during actual game time. Same with Ariza and P.J. Tucker, right? Yet their defensive rating with Ariza on the court says his teams (both last year and this year) gave up 114 points per 100 possessions, and with Tucker it's 113. Needless to say, cherry-picking individual numbers don't tell the entire story, so I'm going to pass on doing that. What I care about are individual contributions and how the team performs while that player is on the court. Going by that, I'll re-emphasize my original point that there's little to no on/off court impact defensively with Harris. Not this year. Not last year. Excluding tonight's game, the Nets have won 12/15 with Harris as one of their best players and have quietly snuck into playoff contention. Not bad for a team who's only real objectives are avoid/jettison large contracts and go all-in this summer via free agency. I get it: not your cup of tea and you want to focus on other needs. All are fair points. A defensive-minded 3/4 as well as a backup C that isn't 80-years-old would both be nice. I'm not saying a player like Harris should be our top priority, by any means. I just see a player that's very underrated on a bargain contract with strengths that fit our system well. As far as our role players go, we don't need more offense; we need better offense. As far as I'm concerned, with the historic rate we're launching 3's, if we're not the best at it then there's room for improvement.
