prime kobe v.s. prime LeBron

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by catch22, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. roflmcwaffles

    roflmcwaffles Member

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    By almost any measure that matters (Win shares, stats, eye test (outside of clutch shots)) Lebron is the better player overall.

    **No the argument 5 > 3 is not a measurement that matters, once you win multiple championships as the most important player on your team, the actual count doesn't matter all that much. It's ridiculous people use this argument ALL THE TIME, but these people NEVER refer to Bill Russell as the greatest ever, how the f*** can you have it both ways?

    I'm not sure why this argument still exists, Kobe was great, but Lebron is a top 5 GOAT by pretty much any measure with a few years left to go, and probably a top 2 GOAT.
     
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  2. Steve_Francis_rules

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    Did Kobe actually hit most of the clutch shots to give them 2 championships? He certainly hit some, but in the 10 playoff games the Lakers won by single digits in 2010, it's hard to argue he hit most.

    Game 7 vs Celtics: Gasol puts them up 6 with 1:30 left, Artest puts them up 6 with 1:01 left. Kobe hits two free throws to help ice the game, but the Artest shot was clearly the biggest clutch shot of the game (and series).

    Game 5 vs Suns (series tied 2-2): Artest hits the game winner with less than a second left. Kobe didn't score in in the final 3:40 of the game.

    Game 3 vs Utah: Fisher makes the go-ahead shot with 28 seconds left.

    Game 6 vs OKC: Gasol makes the game winner with less than 1 second on the clock. Kobe scored only two points in the final ~15 minutes of the game (with 2:11 left in the fourth).

    Game 1 vs OKC: Gasol/Fisher combine for 7 of the eight points in the last 4 minutes. Kobe scores the other one, a free throw to go up 8 with 17 seconds left.

    That's half the close wins in the series right there where Kobe didn't hit the most significant clutch shots.

    Looking at the 2009 playoffs doesn't help Kobe's case for making "most" of the clutch shots either. The Lakers only won five playoff games by single digits. The most memorable of those was certainly the Game 4 OT win in the Finals where Fisher hit both the game tying three in regulation (with 4 seconds left) and the go-ahead three in overtime with 31 seconds left. In Game 2 of the Finals, Kobe didn't score in the final two minutes.
     
  3. Mathrocker

    Mathrocker Member

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    Real talk though
    derek fisher hit clutch shots?!


    Fisher > lebron 5>3
     
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  4. RudyT43

    RudyT43 Member

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    I generally don't rate LeBron over Kobe, but prime LeBron was better than Kobe. His offensive volume was just so much more when you factor in his passing. Oh yeah, his ability to guard 1-5 doesn't hurt either....
     
  5. astrosrule

    astrosrule Member

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    So you don't rate Lebron above Kobe despite saying he's better at every facet of basketball, that makes sense.
     
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  6. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    Hey hakeemthagreat, this is what support looks like, since I'm still waiting on you to show how Kobe was more vital than or outscored Shaq in Q4's of the 3-peat.
     
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  7. RudyT43

    RudyT43 Member

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    Thanks for agreeing! I get so tired of sarcastic jackasses on these threads refuting opinions with super shallow explanations :)
     
  8. LosPollosHermanos

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  9. dmoneybangbang

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    Lebron was much better at his peak as he just affected much more of the entire game.
     
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  10. BigggReddd

    BigggReddd Member

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    I still think LeBron is in his prime but certainly not his peak. Bron is still on a whole different level from the next best player.
     
  11. hakeemthagreat

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    As far as statistics go, Lebron may get the edge. I mean you can say "statistically" Lebron's better than MJ. This is a different day in age. Points are easier to come by and the game is faster paced w/ less defense & physicality. Also the fact he's switching rosters ever few years, forming these superfriends teams takes away from his goat status. There is a reason he does this and it's contributed to his success as a player. He's using his likeness, instead of his talent, to buy championships & get accolades. He's not better than Kobe
     
  12. jsingles

    jsingles Member

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    Points are easier to come by? You sure?

    1985-1998 the NBA average of points per game was 104.3
    2003-2017 the NBA average of points per game was 99.3

    Try. Harder.
     
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  13. astrosrule

    astrosrule Member

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    You have to be trolling right? It's just not fathomable that someone who posts on an nba forum (and thus watches basketball) can ACTUALLY think Kobe is better then James? Those guys are just too far apart to have a rational two sided debate.
     
  14. arno_ed

    arno_ed Contributing Member

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    If Pau was a beneficiary of Kobe during those 2 championships (which I do agree with) than Kobe was a benificiary of the 3 championships when Shaq was clearly the best player of the team. Pau was just as important for their 2 championships as Kobe was for the 3 with Shaq.

    Kobe was a very good player. He even won 2 championships as the best player of the team. Which is great, many very good players did not achieve this. But Kobe is not even close to Lebron. Kobe is probably top 20 all time, but Lebron is at worst clearly top 10.
     
    #354 arno_ed, Aug 15, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
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  15. Mathrocker

    Mathrocker Member

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    Clutcher than lebron

     
  16. hakeemthagreat

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    Shaq was the best player on that team through 3 quarters. Kobe was the closer. Kobe was the playmaker on that team. The first 2 championship he took a backseat to Shaq, but the last championship the table started turning. It was 50/50. Either way Pau was NEVER a closer. He was never a playmaker. He was never dependent on making crucial plays to finish basketball games. In no way is he equivalent to Kobe on ANY team. With that said, Lebron has NEVER been the closer on any of his championship teams. His whole stigma has been a guy who'll put up tremendous stats through 3 1/2 quarters (similar to Shaq) but depend on guys like Wade, Kyrie & Kyle Kover to hit big game shots instead of taking them himself. He's literally scared to take clutch shots
     
  17. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    LOL so basically in a 4 quarter game Shaq does 75% of the work Kobe only does 25% somehow that's supposed to make Kobe great? 1>3, I guess I shouldn't expect any logic from the dude who thinks Kobe is better than Lebron.

    I don't care how "clutch" Kobe is if he is up against Lebron it will be a blow out in Lebron's favor. Who cares about clutch when your player does so much work the first 3 1/2 quarters the game is a blow out already? Maybe if Kobe his own share of work during the first 3 1/2 quarters instead of letting Shaq carry his ass he wouldn't need to hit clutch shots due to a close game.

    Lebron oth reached the Finals on his own carrying a lottery team in CLE on his back. Kobe's clutchness didn't allow him to reach the 2nd round in 3 tries LMAO so much for being clutch.

    The fact that there are so many closers like Kyrie, Korver, Ray Allen, Mike Miller etc. available show you that being a closer is overrated, even on the Lakers team Fisher did his share of closing out games. Beasts who dominate for the first 3 quarters like Shaq and Lebron are 100x more valuable than "closers" like Kobe. As we have seen they are a dime a dozen in the NBA. Jordan is considered the GOAT not just because of his closing, but his all around impact throughout the entire game. In comparison Kobes all around impact is pretty poor, his efficiency is really bad when you consider his number of attempts, in fact he won a championship once year when he shot below 40% FG. Now that's what I call being hard carried to a ring! Lebron's never had that luxury. so tell me who did more with less?
     
  18. SuperMarioBro

    SuperMarioBro Member

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    I didn't say McGrady's best year was better than Kobe's best year... I said McGrady at his best was better than Kobe at his best. McGrady at his best was Lebron-lite. Kobe at his best was an efficient chucker. And that year of Kobe's was a couple years after McGrady's decline began.

    McGrady stopped dominating because his body was slowly breaking down ever since the age of 23-25. So a lot of this is obviously conjecture in terms of predicting how he would have ended up if healthy, but during his youth, he was better than Kobe at the same time, despite being a year younger, too. I think if McGrady had stayed healthy and motivated, this wouldn't even be a question for most people outside LA.

    For example, he certainly would have won titles playing alongside Shaq in LA, and probably would have gotten along with him better, too.
     
  19. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    WHERE IS YOUR SUPPORT FOR THIS?????
     
  20. hakeemthagreat

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    The stats are there..Google is your friend
     
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