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[OFFICIAL] Elizabeth Warren for President thread

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Jan 1, 2019.

  1. Nolen

    Nolen Contributing Member

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    The one example you just happened to give is likely by far the most generous billionaire in the world, perhaps that the world has ever seen.
    Bill Gates has himself argued in favor of government-run programs btw.
    He is a very poor anecdotal example of how the rich spend their money.

    Pooling the wealth of a nation among the rich vastly reduces velocity of money.

    I agree with the previous assertion that healthcare (or any essential service) by philanthropy of the rich = feudalism.
    I also work in a sector that is extremely reliant on nonprofits who in turn rely heavily on the largesse of the rich, but that won't stop me from calling it what it is.
     
  2. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Gates and other Billionaires won't stop donating. Most Billionaires don't give to the same extent as Gates. There are still incentives for them to be philanthropic even with medicare for all. The third world countries will still need help. The taxes talked about under the plan won't bankrupt billionaires. They will all still wealthy beyond reason. They can also continue to increase their wealth.

    The last thing we need to worry about is moving forward with better healthcare because we are scared that we might not get any more crumbs from the billionaires' tables.
     
    Amiga and Nook like this.
  3. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Carnegie#1901–1919:_Philanthropist

    "Carnegie died[70] on August 11, 1919, in Lenox, Massachusetts at his Shadow Brook estate, of bronchial pneumonia.[71] He had already given away $350,695,653 (approximately $76.9 billion, adjusted to 2015 share of GDP figures)[72] of his wealth. After his death, his last $30,000,000 was given to foundations, charities, and to pensioners.[73] He was buried at Sleepy Hollow Cemetery in Sleepy Hollow, New York. "
     
  4. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/people/hall-of-fame/detail/john-rockefeller-sr

    "As impressive as the legacy of the Rockefeller Foundation is, however, it is not clear that it has yet caught up with the accomplishments of its founding donor. John D. Rockefeller gave away $540 million (unadjusted for inflation) before his death in 1937 at the age of 97. With that money, he created two of the world’s greatest research universities, helped pull the American South out of chronic poverty, educated legions of African Americans, jumpstarted medical research, and dramatically improved health around the globe. It is not surprising that his biographer Ron Chernow concluded that Rockefeller 'must rank as the greatest philanthropist in American history.' "
     
  5. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I don't think anyone should be feeling sorry for Carnegie after all he did. If we could have prevented all of the damage he did to the poor, it would far outweigh his charity. His charity was great. I'm glad he did it. It didn't make up for the ill and deaths he caused.

    I won't feel sorry because a billionaire has to restructure their holdings in order to have the nation have a better healthcare system that will also be beneficial to them.
     
    Rashmon likes this.
  6. Nook

    Nook Member

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    She cannot get into too much detail because whatever her plan is, it will be ripped. Same thing happened with Bernie Sanders. Far more likely to be as vague as possible like Reagan, Clinton and Trump have been. What is hard for is that she IS a wonk so she is held to a different standard.

    Regardless of what her plan is, what would pass would be markedly different and she knows that.
     
    jiggyfly, Andre0087, joshuaao and 2 others like this.
  7. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    Uh yeah no one ever built anything great and employed people. It was just luck and all because of bureaucrats and intellectuals.

    A guy built a business that helped create the American Super economy of the 20th Century, gives all his money away on Libraries and
    this is what he gets.

    I've realized that many people that espouse government control just hate wealth and blame other's wealth for their own issues in life.
    It also reeks of envy as why faux intellectuals that feel so much more superior don't make the money some simpleton steel or oil man
    does. Then using the government to show them.

    Elizabeth threatens to destroy the economic well-being of many different people and companies, Trump doesn't do that.

    Anyone that just hates wealth and attempts to take away the livelihood of a man to take care of his family and his business so
    that he may receive a handout from the government is a coward and a envious fraud under the cloak of selflessness.
     
  8. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Are you able to read? You said a bunch of crap that had nothing to do with anything I mentioned.

    The super economy of the 20th century wasn't possible without the American worker. Carnegie sent in folks to rough up those American workers and killed 10 of them and injured more than 100.

    Warren doesn't threaten that at all. She has amassed more wealth than you by pursuing her intellectual interests. Sorry, bud. I don't know if your jealous where your anti-intellectual bent comes from.

    It doesn't make sense that in defending Carnegie you are trying to slam intellectuals. Carnegie founded more than 2,500 libraries. So even he appreciated intellectual pursuits.

    Your whole post reeks of some strange insecurity that you have regarding learned men, scholars and their contributions.

    Also, you shouldn't talk about receiving govt. handouts. The farmers who support Trump are receiving double the government handouts than the auto industry did from Bush Jr. and Obama.

    Your post smacks of just being angry and insecure and doesn't really address any issues at all. When it does touch on issues, it is misguided and fails logic.
     
  9. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    The main problem is that Warren has catered to the consultants who say never propose raising taxes on the middle class (you know they are so dumb!) even if it is to save them money or even the world -- unless it is to fight war or "defense", though recently much of that is raised through borrowing.

    Warren thus had to come up with this complicated plan with many working parts to try to fund Medicare for All. Her advisers at the CAP Democrat Think Tank funded largely by corporations like all the parts as they can be opposed one by one lessening the chance of Medicare for All passing.


    Sanders envisions funding Medicare for All in a simpler to understand way that social security and the present Medicare is done. A simple employee payroll tax of say 4% as estimated by Sanders would pay for Medicare for All and save 95% of Americans money. Sanders' plan exempts the first $29,000. So a person making $50k per year would pay $50-29 = $31k $31k times .04= roughly $1200 ($100 per mo) for all medical, mental health, dental, vision and hearing. As we know all D&D conservatives make at least $150 k so .04 times $121 equals $300 per mo, for complete coverage. For conservatives and followers of Biden and Mayor Pete I guess I have to point out that this replaces all the current premiums (often deducted from paychecks as well as copays and deductibles.

    Her plan would provide strong encouragement for businesses over 50-60 employees to restructure so that they could evade the employer contribution. The corporate think tank crowd also get lathered as they like to have the additional control over determining whether their employees are allowed to have good health care, lessening the chance that they can threaten them with loss of insurance if they get laid off or seek new jobs.
     
    #989 glynch, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  10. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    Who ever said it wasn't possible without the worker? But you vilify a guy that built an industry that tens of millions of Americans
    reaped the rewards from.

    Unions, Teamsters and Business had their share of violence in the 1800's so that 10 people died is a silly argument.

    I have no problem with learned people, but sanctimonious people who want to take away the work and labor of others
    is really a terrible trait.

    She has said she wants to end private insurance, end for profit education, end oil and gas drilling, break up tech companies.

    Its an idiotic plan that attacks the way of life that led to America being the beacon of innovation in the world for 100 years.
     
  11. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    You should thank your lucky stars every day that men like Richard Sears, Carnegie, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, JP Morgan, Henry Ford and others did what they did that we all benefit today. Now men like Jeff Bezos, Steve Jobs and others are continuing the American Dream.

    That all men are afforded the success based on their ability and an equal chance, not an equal outcome.

    Just say thank you to them.

    I hoped the false opiate of socialism errrr communism would die with the 20th century after the millions of dead Russians,
    Eastern Europeans, Latin Americans as these countries always end up the same.
     
  12. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    She amassed her wealth in the tenured university system that has created a debt burden that is crippling our youth.

    University price inflation and unlimited government loans skyrocketed debt. Tenured professors went along for the ride.

    Now as she made millions off of it wants to eliminate student debt?

    So basically she is having the government bailout the same funds that made her wealth.

    If that is not hypocrisy and horrible behavior I don't know what is.
     
  13. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    For Rocketman,

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    Yes because every government program with its steely efficiency brings prices down once it controls the
    industry.

    Why is medicine expensive? Regulatory and licensing excess that allows groups to profit.

    How did Martin Shkrelli and others game the system? They took advantage of stupid government rules on
    rare disease monopolies.

    A free market would close that gap in days akin to a stock merger arbitrage. But instead we have to wait on
    bureaucrats to permit and allow drugs and they're at the mercy of their lobbyists.

    Taking away power from the government frees up people to offer lower priced, higher quality services.
    Their profit margin is others' opportunity.
     
  15. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    Let me give a few examples:

    1.) Dental Hygienists due to the American Dental Association cartel cannot open (except in a few states) their own teeth cleaning
    business though they do a vast majority of the work. Someone working in the field for 30 years must work under a dentist.
    Drives up the price of dentistry.

    2.) A renowned surgeon in Paris that innovated heart surgery cannot practice in the US and must do a residency over again
    and a surgery and cardio fellowship.

    3.) The number of medical schools built from 1965 to 1995 was essentially ZERO because they were only allowed to be built if they were approved by the American Medical Association.

    4.) Optometrists are trained to do minor cataract removal but in most states cannot due to Opthalmology licensing boards.

    5.) In the 1940's there was a rule you had to be a US citizen to practice medicine?! So Albert Einstein wouldn't have been able to be a doctor.

    The list goes on and on and on. Only through government power can these atrocities happen.

    Is this a free market? No. Its controlled by bureaucrats and government power of licensing boards that limit medicine to
    what they believe makes them more money. They lobby to continue their power so the politicians get paid.

    Only way out is limit what government can do and the politicians can't lick their chops at lobbying funds to create more artificial barriers.
     
  16. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    Leave this nonsense on facebook please.
     
    Andre0087 likes this.
  17. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Yeah, nonsense. If you spend $15,000 on healthcare -premiums, copays, dedutibles etc for a family of 4, sticking to networks your employer chose and the alternative is paying say $8,000 more in taxes and can have more CHOICE OF DOCTORS OR HOSPTIALS you are screwed.

    Math, guys, $8,000 is less than $15,000. You can always take your $7,000 savings and send it directly to the insurance company execs or even Fox to support your beliefs and try to turn public opinion back to your beloved status quo. Maybe even give it to charity health clinics for the uninsured if you feel a bit caring.

    The moral argument against tens of millions uninsured and 500,000 medical bankruptcies, per year and an estimated, 30,000 excess deaths etc. we simply cannot afford to spend twice as much of our GDP, on medical services than other advanced countries.
     
    #997 glynch, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
    RayRay10 likes this.
  18. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    Medicare gets the cheapest rates of any insurance company. The US government is the largest healthcare provider in this country.

    We could get rid of the FDA and patents too.

    I am not sure if working for Amazon or walmart is the dream for most people in this country.
     
    FranchiseBlade likes this.
  19. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    We totally need to go back to the era of unlicensed medicine.

    Not enough people sewing rotting goat testicles under people's skin. A few more goat testicle folk doctors would really bring the cost of healthcare down.

    Maybe we can go back to the era of patent medicine, and giving babies heroin for colic, too. People were so much healthier in the 19th Century. Eliminate flouride in the water, too. Who needs teeth?
     
    jiggyfly and FranchiseBlade like this.
  20. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    Any simpleton can add 1 + 1. And with a calculator, they can see the amazing returns the Nigerian prince is offering.

    If you think a 25% increase is going to somehow magically wipe away 75% of costs, you're being just as much of as a fool as those who believed Obama when he said 'You can keep your doctor'.

    People like yourself always make it out that those who disagree with you are greedy selfish people who enjoy watching people suffer and die, and quite frankly its very insulting. Obamacare had massive flaws and anyone who was being remotely objective could see it very clearly. Instead, people like yourself are now crying foul and blaming everyone but yourself for the very flaws some were trying to point out in the first place. And now you're doing the same thing with this magical math nonsense.

    Use a little common sense and start questioning the numbers these politicians are telling you. The average american is not going to pay $2000 a year and get free everything. They are not going to pay $8000 a year for a family and get free everything. Someone is going to pay and everyone is going to find ways not to pay. If you try to tax the rich and the corporations,they will find a way to cut those corners. That is reality.

    There are too many people who offer nothing and are getting very wealthy from the medical cartel. That is a good place to start cutting costs.
     
    joshuaao likes this.

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