[Official] Astros Offseason Thread

That's true. Berkman dropped 20 points in his average the last month and a half. I went to the last two home series games, Phillies and Cardinals. He was smacking the ball around pretty good the games I went.

 

he had the same situation is arlington; never "dominated" when it counted - always seemed to turn it on AFTER the rangers had been eliminated. there is just something... off about arod.

consider that IF he's dealt this winter, it will mark the second time he's been traded and he'd be playing for his fourth team - is the guy even 30 yet? the GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME. traded twice; 4 teams. how many great, great players get traded twice in the span of 3-4 years? and seattle didn't exactly miss the guy when he left the mariners. in fact, they won, like, 116 games the year after he left.

 

Not true. On August 15th Berkman was hitting .319 and he ended the season hitting .315 - not quite 20 points. In addition, he hit .330 in September.

 

I wouldn't be too negative on him being "traded" twice... if you look at the circumstances.

1.) He signs with Texas, only because they were the ones who were dumb enough to offer a contract more than $100 million than then next highest bidder (the Braves). Boras had them bidding against themselves... Hick is an idiot. A Rod was going to get paid regardless (and deservedly so)... but it took the Rangers bumping up the offer THAT MUCH to get him to go there, and I wouldn't fault anybody for accepting that $$$.

2.) He wants to win, so he forces his way out of the Arlington losers... I don't see the big deal in that. That's already "one trade", but its done because the guy wanted to go to a better team... I wouldn't say that's a negative.

3.) He's currently on a glorified "all-star" team, full of big-name sluggers, playing in the media capitol of the world... where if you don't tie your shoes a certain way or leave the toilet seat up in your own home, it shows up on the back pages of 3 different newspapers as well as the 11'oclock news. The guy wins an MVP last year, puts up 35 HR's this year, but is judged solely on what he does in a handful of AB's in the post-season (meanwhile, lets not address the other $100 million dollar players in that lineup who didn't do squat against the Tigers... hell, Giambi is lucky to still be in the big leagues after what he did, and he's yet to perform as well as A-Rod did as a yankee). Sure, he's got some problems... image is important to him, he doesn't like being called out, and he wants to be loved... but if the guy hits better than the player he replaces, I'm willing to let that go.

4.) You think Seattle won all those games the following year because A Rod was keeping them down? You think Seattle would like it if Adrian Beltre and Richie Sexon weren't combining to be worth less than their contracts than A-Rod is worth his?

5.) Nolan Ryan was on 4 teams... Roger Clemens was on 4 teams... both of them had circumstances where you had to look deeper before judging.

 

the rangers' record with arod: 216-270
the rangers' record since: 248-238

in fact, the m's and rangers are a combined +43 wins in the year immediately following arod's departure. it bears mentioning.

i cannot, nor will i attempt to put a finger on it. yes, the guy is a beast on the field. off it... he's just... let's just say the complaints you're hearing from NY were prevelant in dallas, too. not many there miss him:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...mlb/stories/100806dnspoquicktake.2f91fd4.html

5.) Nolan Ryan was on 4 teams... Roger Clemens was on 4 teams... both of them had circumstances where you had to look deeper before judging.[/QUOTE]
both of those players pitched into their mid-40's; but they have long tenures is california (ryan, 8 years); houston (ryan, 9 years) and boston (clemens, 13 years); it's not like teams dumped 'em. in fact, incompetent management was the reason ryan left houston and clemens left boston.

arod, otoh, would be on his third team in 4 years. and none of his previous teams to this point regret him leaving.

i'm just telling you, man - i've witnessed the arod circus first-hand. there's just something not right with the guy. it's weird, but it exists.

 

i'd take a-rod in houston in a heartbeat.

 

Figgered I'd mention it:

JR House & Eric Munson were dropped off the 40-man roster. Purp said he'll talk to both & try to bring them back. RH reliever Paul Estrada was added.

Look for more roster moves prior to the Rule V draft, as the 2004 draft class (Pence, Patton, Parraz, Reineke, Towles, Santangelo, Englebrook, Ash) will be eligible this year.

 

Was it weird when he was leading Seattle to the ALCS his first few years?

Was it weird when he was killing the ball out of the park in Arlington?

I can understand how his contract hampered what the Rangers could and could not do, personnel wise. I can understand if he alienated some of the other "young budding stars" in the Ranger locker room who were looking up to him for guidance.... but you can't tell me that the guy "underachieved" in his years with the Rangers... his numbers speak for themself.

Also, I can't take any stock in what the Texas freakin Rangers have done at all over the last 10 years... they've made so many screwed up decisions, from offering A-Rod the $250 million, to signing Chan Ho Park... it looks that much worse when the Astros have developed a ton of good young pitching as well as created a "winning environment" just down the road, with far less expenditures than the Hick in Arlington dishes out.

Bottom line: you plug A-Rod on a team like the Astros, where EVERYTHING is kept in-house (mostly because our local media is so rah-rah), and a place where Biggio, Berkman, Oswalt, Clemens, and Pettite would all be considered "leaders" on this team no matter what A-Rod does, I'm pretty confident he can make this team better.

I think people expect ARod to cure Cancer when he goes to their team... or at least be the captain/leader/spokesman/etc. If you don't expect that, and just put him in charge of putting up ridiculous numbers year after year after year... you're going to be happy with what he does. I would rather listen to Berkman joke about twinkies anyways, then hanging on ARod's every word to be the emotional leader of the team (like people in NY wanted).

This is sort of the anti-Barkley trade... in the fact that the Rockets wanted Barkley's fire/emotion/publicity/spokesman/captaincy nature to help lead a team full of quiet guys in the background like Hakeem and Clyde. The Astros simply want somebody to HIT the ball... and leave the media duties to Craig Cliche Biggio, Lance "I'll talk about anything", Oswalt "can I pretend to be any more monotone", or Roger/Andy if they come back. Hell, Drayton and Phil get more media time than any of our current players do.

 

...well done.

 

The prevailing BBS question seems to revolve around whether the man has a heart.

 

The guy could be hollow, for all I care... if he puts up anything close to the numbers he has in his career. And judging by our right-hander haven ballpark... he would.

The question is, why do so many people care about what goes on in ARod's "mind"? The NY media has screwed up a lot less talented people than ARod.

 

year. they went once. and had griffey, johnson and martinez on that team.

no one argues the guy's production. but why, if he was KILLING the ball, would the rangers trade him? and why, if he's continuing to kill the ball, is NY (possibly) ready to trade him?

he wore out his welcome with two teams in the span of three years. dude, barry bonds hasn't even managed that feat. players of his caliber are not dealt this often.

again, i'm certainly not arguing about his production. the question is why are so many teams eager to give up on that kind of production?

would you put any stock in what the yankees have done over the last 10 years?

 

Re-sign Pettitte

Figure out a way to get Dontrelle in here

Sign either Lee or Soriano (assuming Soriano would stay in LF)

Use Mo, Willie, Burke (especially if we have a shot at Soriano and he wants to play 2b), Lidge, Qualls, Luke, AE and Lamb as trade bait (obviously not all of them but a package of any 2 or 3) and see what we can bring.

Consider it a bonus if we can Roger to pitch 3/4 of the season again for his "last" go around.

 

The Rangers had no financial flexibility with hiim on the roster (along with paying Park's $12million salary). They weren't going to get better. A-Rod knew that, and also wanted to go to a better team. The Rangers needed far too many other pieces that they couldn't get with ARod on the team... they also had other guys coming up who could put up similar numbers (or at least all-star like numbers in Blalock, Texiera). In other words, they had more needs, and viewed his bat as superfluous.

The Yankees wanted A-Rod to continue to put up his numbers... but also be the one to get a big hit in every post-season game. He only did one of those (and won an MVP in the process). Again, the Yankees have enough resources/players that they don't need ARod. But if they have him, he sure makes a great scape-goat. Also, the reason why the Yankees didn't win is because they thought they could out hit everybody... not because ARod had a bad series (nearly everybody on that team had a bad series).

A-Rod is a lot more like Charles Barkley than he is like Terrell Owens. He's such a great talent, but he's been in two situations which were pretty much "no-win" scenarios before he ever stepped on the scene... 1. the rangers are perenially underacheiving, and they couldn't get any better with his contract... frankly, they never should have gave it to him. 2. if he wins with the Yankees, its because they're supposed to win... look at their roster/payroll. if he loses with the yankees (even if he puts up MVP numbers), people who don't like him point out his character flaws (which he has) that makes him so easy to be the scape-goat. Randy Johnson deserves blame... Giambi deserves blame... but A-Rod gets the most of it.

Mostly because those teams had A-Rod as a luxury... not as a necessity. His production on an actual TEAM like the Astros (who already know that pitching/defense wins games) would be infinitely more valuable than his ho-hum 30-50 HR's on a Yankees team that has 3 other guys capable of big numbers... or his 57 HR's on a Rangers team that can't get anybody out.

Do you honestly think circumstances would be the same if he was on an Astro team with Oswalt, Pettite, Clemens in a rotation... with the 3-headed bullpen... and a balanced lefty-righty lineup with Berkman, Scott, Biggio and Taveras surrounding him? If he still gets 30-40 HR's on this team, and they don't make the playoffs, I don't think anybody would be blaming him... they'd be blaming the areas which let the team down.

Even as much flack as Bagwell/Biggio got for not hitting well in the 90's playoffs, nobody was that eager to run them out of town.

Not since they started spending ridiculously/unwisely after they lost the 2001 World Series. A-rod wasn't there when they flopped in 2002. A-Rod wasn't there when their lineup was dominated by YOUNG pitching (Beckett) in 2003. The Yankees consider their year a failure when they don't win the world series... if they want to scape goat A-Rod for all the reasons why that hasn't happened, fine.

 

nick, please list ANY other major league EVER that is in, or even near arod's class who, in their prime, were deemed "superfluous." that's such a ringing indictment.

coughcoughbull****coughcough.

four teams actively pursued alex rodriguez in 2001:
the mariners, who were coming off a 91-win season; the braves, who were 9 years into their 14-year reign in the nl east; the mets, who were a year removed from a world series appearence, and the rangers, who had finished 71-91 the year before.

he followed the money and scampered from the spotlight. he had a chance to JUST WIN, and settled for counting his money, instead.

as for the rangers being handicapped by rodriguez; that, too, is BS. they gave park a $60M contract aftersigning arod. they had money; they just didn't know how to spend it effectively.

seems like joe torre is the scapegoat. in theory, you want to KEEP your best players. i didn't see the cardinals offering up pujols last year, or the astros shopping berkman this year when the teams failed to meet expectations. hell, the yankees don't seem to be in a hurry to unload anyone else.

scenarios he created.

i don't believe that.

sincerely,
david carr.

if the astros go out and get ANY stick and DON'T make the playoffs, that person will be criticized, especially if clemens and pettite are back.

oh, yes they did. biggio and bagwell's "failures" in the playoffs were a CONSTANT source of irritation for a lot of knee-jerk, moron fans here.

 

You're honestly telling me that if A-Rod puts up his average career numbers here and the team doesn't make the playoffs... HE will be the scapegoat?

David Carr didn't have a 40TD, 4,000 yard season... he had a bad season, on a worse team, and got the blame... most of it undeservedly, but there was some reason to point the finger at him. That's an awful comparison.

Bagwell/Biggio were bad... and a lot of people were upset about it... but people who actually follow the game would understand the science behind small sample sizes, combined with facing some of the best pitchers in the 90's. Barry Bonds was also terrible in the playoffs at one point too... then 2002 happened.

If you have a problem with A-rod, fine... a lot of people don't like a guy who cares about his image a ton. I couldn't care less about his image. Frankly, I couldn't care less if he blows off the media or never buys a house in Houston. I couldn't care less if he never hung out with anybody in the clubhouse on off days.

If the guy comes here and is good at his job... THAT will be the thing I judge him on, not some pre-set/royalty standard that some of you seem to think he should live up to.

(also, "problem guys", which I still think its silly for A-rod to be considered... seem to be doing pretty good this playoffs: Frank Thomas, Milton Bradley, Kenny Rogers, Nomar, Kent... sometimes it takes the right team.)

 

dude, he won an MVP last year is being scapegoated. so yes. when you make $25M a year, the expectations change.

it's a glimpse into the thought process of fans; you and i can appreciate the improvements carr's made, but the vast majority are married to the notion this is still 2005 and always will be for him. you know that.

nick, those reasonable people are few and far between. you know that, too.

i don't have a problem, per se. i perceive a problem.

i've asked you this in the context of most of my responses: we know he's great, on the field. so why is he wearing out his welcome? not just in ny, but in arlington and seattle, too. no one seems to lose any sleep over him leaving.

(potentially) 4 teams since 2000. name another player who's as good and has played for as many teams. it just doesn't happen.

i believe in numbers. i think too many people make too much about intangibles that don't exist and can't be measured. but the circumstanstial evidence surrounding arod DOES exist. the day the rangers signed him, one of the talk show hosts up there said, "i'm so excited, i may pee on myself." it took 2.5 years to sour EVERYONE up there on him AND HE WON AN MVP!!!
i mean, it wasn't like he didn't earn his money; he did.

something's amiss about the guy.

 

The only real problem with him that I can see and is not even percieved is his contract. He hampers most clubs from spending money on other players. If the fans/team have a problem with their standings/playoff hopes, the managment has to think about moving him to free up some dollars to actually make the changes needed.

I would (as would most fans) be pissed if we paid someone his $$$$ and didn't get into the playoffs or go deep. He is a great player, but when he is the most expensive guy on the team, your expectations have to change.

We are just now getting out from under Bagwell's $$$$ contract. I just don't see Drayton going after this guy materializing as a real possiblity. If they Yankees throw him our way . . . whose to say, but us trying to go out and get him, when we need to pay for starting pitching? I don't think so.

 

Something's also amiss in the organizations he's played for... THAT you can't deny.

Seattle had a good thing going... but they may have gotten a little too full of themselves after having success after all their big stars left. In the end, their 116 win season barely got them out of the first round, and then subsequently bounced by the Yankees. Since then, they've made the horrible mistakes by overpaying for guys in their FA years (Beltre, Sexon), and being unable to get enough arms to fill a rotation or bullpen.

The Rangers had problems before Arod, and still have problems after. If they thought he was a cure-all... which I'm guessing by your recant of Dallas' response when they got him... that's their fault.

The Yankees have problems that are not A-rod related as well. More fingers should be pointed at Randy Johnson. More fingers should be pointed at the crap that makes up their bullpen before you get to Mariano.

I don't really know what we're arguing... I understand that the "common fan" will think A-rod is a cancer if their team doesn't win, and I understand the "NY" fan will jump all over him and long for the days of Paul O'neil and Andy Pettite. That still doesn't mean he doesn't make this team better.

I understand that the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming... but by taking a look at each of the situations he was in, and the decision that was made, it really is just that... circumstantial.

If there is something "cosmic" about A-rod that contributes to destroying whatever team he plays for, then it will have to match wits with the "cosmic" force of the Astros that seems to have a team in position to win every single year no matter what the circumstances...

Frankly, I think its all baloney... I believe that organizations as a whole stand or fall.. and if one player can have enough of an impact to destroy/ruin the team, then that team wasn't all that strong to begin with.

 

Just a side note....ARods salary portion to whoever he plays for for the next season (should he get traded) is 64 million over the 4 yrs....16 mil per year....big diff than 25. Love to see him at MMP.