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Numerical evidence TMac hurts the Rockets

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by northeastfan, Feb 1, 2009.

  1. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    If you cannot attack the message
    Attack the Messenger

    Rocket River
     
  2. WhoMikeJames

    WhoMikeJames Contributing Member

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    The fact that Northeastfan's nickname for Scola is Scrubola doesn't give him any credibility in his posting.
     
  3. Spacemoth

    Spacemoth Contributing Member

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    Forever to be known to Rockets fans as the "Game T-Mac Quit on Us". I was an apologist before this game, but no longer. Ewing Theory, get to work!
     
  4. whatevar93

    whatevar93 Member

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    *sigh* i guess i'll have to reiterate....

    1) with tmac we're shooting eFG is 48.8% without him we're shooting a 49.5% eFG. not as huge as you make it out to be

    2) tmac was playing with one leg the first half of the season and he's scoring 15ppg on 44% eFG for the season.

    3) with tmac on the floor we're giving up 104 pts per 100 possesions. without tmac we're giving up 107 pts per 100 possesions.

    4) +/- is very skewed. tmac had a much better game against philly then he had against the pistons yet his +/- was positive in the pistons game. mo williams of the cavs has a top 10 +/- in the nba. does that mean he's a top 10 player in the L? no its just skewed because he plays with lebron most of the time on the floor.

    5) if we're 7-3 with tmac and 3-7 without tmac then we only played 20 games this season........we're actually 18-12 with tmac so there goes your "we lose when tmac is playing" theory.

    6) Yes tmac with one knee doesn't make the team better or worse.
     
  5. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Contributing Member

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    northeastfan should do another stats post when the season's over from now on (when tracy finally feels better about his knee). let's see if he hurts the team like he says.

    b/c apparently, to him, everytime tracy plays, the rockets will lose. i'll expect the rockets not to win a game from now on. :rolleyes:
     
  6. NotInMyHouse

    NotInMyHouse Contributing Member

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    Sorry I don't trust your eyes no matter how adamant you are of what you think you see. I hope you say that's stats are overreated with the full knowledge that the GM, Daryl Morey, is a stay guy himself and I would be willing to bet that either the GM himself or someone on his staff keeps track of statistics like this.
     
  7. Yao4REAL

    Yao4REAL Member

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    In order for Tmac to get my favoritism back, he has to change the way he play the game. He can't just settle for out shots all the time. For every shot that he took from outside, I demand ONE drive and attack the basket. If not, he'll never get my vote of confident back.
     
  8. northeastfan

    northeastfan Member

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    Yes, the statistics must be flawed ....
     
  9. northeastfan

    northeastfan Member

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    I did not say that. I said we would struggle ... there's a big difference. I'd love to keep computing stats; can anyone provide me with a database?
     
  10. northeastfan

    northeastfan Member

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    Do you have source data or are you summarizing from another source. If you have source data, where did you get it? I'd love to get a hold of it.

    Also, my contention was the TSlack's recent play hurt the team. That does not contradict the statistics you've posted.
     
  11. sw847

    sw847 Member

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    Yo, with no disrespect, but we are talking about our 'superstar' here. We are not talking about Shane, who has the intangibles to help his teammates. We are talking about Tmac, 20 mil player who you expect to put up big numbers day in day out. if yao had a game with only 10 points, i don't care how many boards he had, that is just a bad game. With Tmac, I expect him to give us what Artest gave us against GS. 20points, 5-7 assists, 5-7 boards. Thats the kind of stats a max contract player SHOULD have, not have on a 'good' night. in the case of Tmac, the problem is he is putting up numbers that he should average on a good night, but on a bad night...I got nothing against Tmac but I just wish he could play better. Back in the days, he was compared to Kobe, but look at Kobe now. I see the difference, I really wish we got our money's worth. Not a max player who his fans have to use 'INTANGIBLES' or 'HE MAKE HIS TEAM MATES BETTER' or 'HE IS A GREAT PASSER' excuses to stand up for him.

    Hey just my two cents, I love Tmac...one of my favourite players before, but this year i have been really disappointed to a point where I kind of rather not watch him play.
     
  12. agentkirb87

    agentkirb87 Member

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    To the OP:

    I respect the data and time you put into your post. But the conclusion you come to is that Tmac is bad for this team. I have a couple of counter points to that conclusion:

    1. First of all... you take 20 games, and Tmac was in a situation where he was in an out of the line-up every other game. Is that really a fair way to assess the impact of a player? Not only that, but most of those games were a part of our worst losing stretch of the season. I know you are going to respond with "it was because of Tmac", that can't be though because we also lost games and played like crap when Tmac was not playing.

    2. Artest's numbers are on the same level as McGradys. He's hitting .5% less of his FG but slightly more of his 3s and scores like 1 point more while getting about 1 less rebound and assist. Why no hate for Artest then?

    3. Tmac (and Artest for that matter) have a history of not sucking. Thats why they get more slack because they have been good before. It's going to take more than half a season of mediocrity for us to come to the conclusion that they are trash. Also, Tmac worked last season. How? We won games with Tmac and without Yao (and Artest for that matter). How?

    4. There have been tons of threads on this issue already. People are trying to argue how crappy Tmac is, but they fail to realize that its a futile argument. Its pointless debate. Lets say you ARE right. What do you do about it? You aren't going to trade him for a contributing player, we obviously aren't going to bench him. We NEED either him or a 3rd scorer in return to have a shot at a title.
     
  13. kaocsaephan

    kaocsaephan Member

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    Will be used in my life: essays, normal language, and online *****-talking.
     
  14. northeastfan

    northeastfan Member

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    Thank you for your kind words. Now your points.

    1. This is probably the most fair way. The situations are almost identical with respect to the other players on the Rockets. I want to know his impact *now* and not his impact as last year or even the beginning of the year.

    2. I don't hate Artest. I don't hate TSlack. If someone else wants to do the analysis for Artest (or even deeper analysis), I would welcome it.

    3. Maybe, but I don't think the Rockets can afford to see if he gets better. They are losing games *now* because of TSlack. My analysis deals with *now*, not the distant past. Note that I never did say that we can't win games with TSlack. Note also, I never made a reference to Yao.

    4. I would let TSlack take his sweet time. He is currently hurting the Rockets. If he's going to be a high efficiency, energetic player in two days ... fine. If it takes 2 more weeks fine. If he needs the rest of the season ... fine. Play the players who are contributing more that TSlack right now. But I don't want to see a slacker on the floor.
     
  15. crunch

    crunch Member

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    Numerical evidence:

    5 - 1 = 7
     
  16. jkckwong

    jkckwong Member

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  17. tmac2k8

    tmac2k8 Member

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    hello everyone, the maker of this thread has a very valid point, I love tmac and would love for him to have a positive impact on this team again but as of this season, the truth is has hurt the team. Those are very hard facts and statistics, not to mention the caliber of our opponents have been more difficult with out tmac yet we still have a better record playing without him. I'm not sure what to do to be honest, i'm not one to say leave him out of the line up or to say we do not need him to get out of the 1st round, but he has disrupted the flow of the offense that adelman is trying to get this team to run. I think he just needs to stop taking bad shots, and drive to the basket as much as possible, but then again, who hasn't heard that time and time again about tmac, yet he loves to stop and take contested jumpshots...
     
  18. Yao#1

    Yao#1 Member

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    Then surely you feel Alston, or Airballston as you called him, is a far better option for this team then Brooks. If you go over the past 20 games, which you clearly have stated is the best predictor of the next few games, then Brooks should never see the floor. He was awful during that stretch, even if you include his last game.

    We get it. Tmac has been terrible this year. No one will argue that. What people are saying is we need the Tmac of old if we expect to compete for a championship. Go back and run the same numbers with Artest. It will show he sucked the past 20 games also.
     
  19. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Who cares about the next game? We are talking about the playoffs. Yes, if he plays like this comes playoffs time, then yeah, we don't need him.

    But see, you are back tracking. I thought you were trying to dispel the "myth" that T-Mac makes this team better. Now all you are saying is that he's been playing like crap this season. Well, tell us something we don't know already.
     
  20. ibm

    ibm Member

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    no one is arguing that. but the question is - is a "mcgrady of old" still possible at this point?
     

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