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Novel Thought: Give Tierre Brown Moochie's Minutes

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Manny Ramirez, Mar 21, 2002.

  1. Manny Ramirez

    Manny Ramirez The Music Man

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    Really what do we have to lose by doing this? Tierre only gets to play if Francis does not play.

    The little dribbler has had his moments this season like the 17 assist game and hitting some big shots at the end of games; however, he has hardly played what he is worth - contract wise.

    Yet, no matter who is out there - Francis and Mobley or Torres and Langhi, LD is always on the court....ALWAYS. My question is why? Is it to justify that huge and ridiculous contract he got? Is he blackmailing Rudy or CD or Les?:p I would really like to know.

    We are going nowhere fast this season. Moochie has played a ton of minutes...he is probably averaging the most minutes of his career this season. Why not let Tierre get some of those minutes? I mean, the poor kid has hardly gotten a chance to show what he can do. If Tierre got 90% of Moochie's minutes for the next 5 games, then we might get a better idea if Tierre is really a player worth developing or if he is going to be another Joe Stephens - someone who is gone and forgotten after 1 season.
     
  2. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    I second that.
     
  3. DearRock

    DearRock Contributing Member

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    I really cannot argue with that. Taking it further, we may just know whether we may want to move Moochie to help upgrade another position.
     
  4. haven

    haven Member

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    And what position would that be? You're not going to be able to trade Moochie for a player that's better than one our starting 5. And if he was required in a package to nab someone who was significantly better... then we already know that the Mooch would be history.

    I bet Rudy can evaluate Brown well enough from what he does in practice. You just don't get to see those ;).
     
  5. Manny Ramirez

    Manny Ramirez The Music Man

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    That's true, haven, but other teams don't know much about Tierre. What do we have to lose by letting him play more minutes??

    I would love to see us move Moochie for almost about anything, but primarily a draft pick - nothing like a lottery pick but maybe a future 1st rounder or a 2nd rounder. However, finding a taker for Mooch and his contract is a formidable almost impossible task.

    I just hate to see a guy who might be worth keeping waste away and be forgotten.
     
  6. DearRock

    DearRock Contributing Member

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    I am not sure I am with you on that. I believe the Rockets like Moochie for what he can do and as insurance for Wink. They proved that by the contract that they gave him. However, I think Moochie has more respect at this time around the league than he did last year and he may just be needed badly by someone else. If that was to be the case he could be packaged to get something done.

    What position? I believe we have to address the 5 spot. I am one of those who feel reasonably comfortable with our 48 mins at the 5 spot being manned by Cato, Collier, EG and even MoT. That would be my plan B, and I would still pursue trying to upgrade that spot.

    As far as the other positions, I would not say we have an urgent need to upgrade any of the other spots. I am not one of those salivating over Odom or Lewis. Quite frankly, I am happy to just wait and see who is there at #7 or wherever we pick. I am also happy to wait for more "consolidation" to take place on the team. Like this season we had "consolidation" with the improvements by Mobes, KT, and EG. Next year we can expect more from these guys and of course OT, Tmo and in a different sense, Wink. All these considerations justify the patient, deliberate and confident approach.

    Barring injuries, this is a very dangerous team.
     
  7. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Because he's a good player?

    As for Tierre Brown, Rudy makes players earn their PT in practice. Collier, Langhi, Torres never get to play except in blowouts, so why should Brown? Recently, it seems that Rudy will give a couple minutes to these guys anyway, but not at the expense of 90% of the rotation guys' minutes.
     
  8. Hottoddie

    Hottoddie Contributing Member

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    Moochie for Kwame & a swap of #1 picks with Washington might work. ;)
     
  9. Manny Ramirez

    Manny Ramirez The Music Man

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    But JV, Moochie's play has regressed, IMO, this season compared to last season.

    I'm not suggesting an all-out tank job. If I was, I would just say start Moochie, Torres, Langhi, TMo, and Collier for the rest of the season.

    However, this season is a lost cause & I think most people would admit that Moochie has been a disappointment this season. Give Tierre an extended look for 5 games and see if he is worth developing for the future for us or to showcase for another team like we did for Damon Jones this past pre-season.
     
  10. DaDakota

    DaDakota Contributing Member

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    Moochie has played OUTSTANDING this year. He started slowly, but he LEADS the team in assist to T/O ratio.

    He has done an admirable job when Steve has been injured, and has hit tons of clutch baskets.

    Don't hate the mooch...he is getting paid Matt Maloney money and is actually contributing.

    DD
     
  11. Hottoddie

    Hottoddie Contributing Member

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    Manny,

    While I agree with you about getting Tierre/Langhi/Collier/T-Mo/Torres some serious minutes to find out if we're going to keep them or not, I do have to disagree with your opinion of Moochie regressing.

    I know that we had to endure that frustrating stretch where he dribbled away the games, but overall, his stats have improved dramatically this year, with the exception of his FG, 3pt, & FT shooting percentages. He's also developed into a clutch shooter with the game on the line. Here's his career stats.

    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/moochie_norris/career_statistics.html

    YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
    96-97 VAN 8 0 11.1 .182 .200 .400 .40 1.10 1.50 2.9 .50 .00 .63 .60 1.5
    98-99 SEA 12 0 11.7 .325 .400 .375 .30 1.30 1.70 2.0 .58 .00 1.33 1.40 3.2
    99-00 HOU 30 0 16.7 .434 .414 .781 .50 1.70 2.30 3.1 .77 .03 1.00 1.10 6.9
    00-01 HOU 82 6 20.2 .446 .281 .778 .50 1.90 2.40 3.5 .84 .02 1.30 1.00 6.6
    01-02 HOU 67 24 27.6 .407 .275 .745 .80 2.10 2.90 5.0 .96 .06 1.84 1.60 8.5
    Career 199 30 21.3 .417 .298 .748 .60 1.90 2.50 3.8 .84 .04 1.41 1.20 6.9





    CAREER TOTALS
    REBOUNDS
    YEAR TEAM G GS MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
    96-97 VAN 8 0 89 4-22 2-10 2-5 3 9 12 23 4 0 5 5 12
    98-99 SEA 12 0 140 13-40 6-15 6-16 4 16 20 24 7 0 16 17 38
    99-00 HOU 30 0 502 69-159 12-29 57-73 16 52 68 94 23 1 30 32 207
    00-01 HOU 82 6 1,654 184-413 25-89 151-194 44 154 198 283 69 2 107 84 544
    01-02 HOU 67 24 1,851 213-523 30-109 111-149 56 139 195 338 64 4 123 109 567
    Career 199 30 4,236 483-1,157 75-252 327-437 123 370 493 762 167 7 281 247 1,368

     
  12. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Hottoddie, your stats are damn near illegible.

    Comparing this season to last, I discovered something about Moochie: he's become a better passer but a worse scorer.

    This season he gets 5.04 assists and 1.84 turnovers for a ratio of 2.74 assists per turnover. Last season, he has 3.45 assists, 1.29 turnovers and a ratio of 2.67.

    But, statistically, his scoring has taken a dive. His average went up from 6.63 to 8.46 PPG. His PP48 went down, though, from 15.75 to 14.74. His FG% went down from 44.55% to 40.73%; 3P% from 28.09% to 27.52%, FT% (which should never go down, IMO) from 77.84% to 74.5%, and his Points per Attempt down from 1.32 (impressive) to 1.08 (not impressive).

    I never really noticed it before, but, yes, Moochie's play has declined from last year. His improved passing is more than offset by his decline in shooting. The decline must be in part due to that bad stretch he had when Francis was out. This decline may be due to being forced into the starting 5 by Francis' injury (he is taking over 2.5 more shots per game than last year), or from the change in the team makeup and strategy, or from the defensive rules changes (that Mobley seems to have gotten over). Or, he just isn't playing as well anymore.

    That doesn't mean I want Tierre playing in his place though. For one thing, Tierre isn't playing better than the Mooch of this season. His assists per turnover is much lower at 1.68. His Points per Attempt are slightly lower at 1.06. His FG% is slightly better at 42.68% (vs. 40.73%), 3P% better at 28.57% (at these percentages, I don't want Tierre or Mooch shooting the three), but FT% is worse at 68.18%.

    Of course, none of this analysis can measure the intangibles.

    Besides that, we've seen better play from Mooch before, so I think we can hope to see it again. I'm not of the philosophy that you give up on someone whenever they have a slump. I haven't done any game-by-game analysis, but he does seem to play much better than he did early in the season. If someone has time left, they may want to compare Mooch's PPA and A/TO and FG% from Nov-Jan to Jan-March.
     
  13. Manny Ramirez

    Manny Ramirez The Music Man

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    HT:

    I see where you are coming from, and you make a good argument (stats never lie - for the most part); however, I think Juan sorta hit the nail on the head with his last post.

    I think it might even be simpler to say that Moochie is just not a starting PG. He is an excellent back-up PG, but I think a team would have to be in really bad shape to have to start him at PG.

    I know it sounds like I'm hatin' on him, but there are just certain players like Vinnie Johnson and Eddie Johnson, for example, that always played better coming off the bench. I think that Moochie might be another one of those types.
     
  14. Sane

    Sane Member

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    But, Mooch would probably be the best PG on a lot of teams

    Memphis
    New York (maybe)
    Atlanta
    Denver
    San Antonio (current abilities, not potential)
    Washington
    Golden State
    Detroit
    Lakers(?)



    He's an average starter. If he was the worse player in a starting line-up, then the team wouldn't have to worry. But when the lineup is:

    Mooch
    Cat
    Walt
    KT
    Cato


    You have to be Francis to be the PG on that team.
     
  15. lpbman

    lpbman Member

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    Moochie's better than Dana Barros or Tim Hardaway?

    really?

    I don't think so but i surely agree he's at his best comming off the bench
     
  16. Sane

    Sane Member

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    At this stage in their respective careers, I'm sure Mooch is better than those two. I thought Derek Fisher or Mark Jackson would be more debateable.
     
  17. bigboymumu

    bigboymumu Member

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    I don't know about you guys but I recently noticed Tierre's intensity on the defensive end. I don't know if it was just the last game but his defense caught my eye.
     
  18. dreday

    dreday Contributing Member

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    I 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th.........
     
  19. lpbman

    lpbman Member

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    I think it's called fighting for an NBA Career

    bigboymumu

    Though when i watched him here at McNeese St. he always played hard

    though, he had 7'1 Brewer swatting anything that got past him

    His shooting was very good in college but how often does that translate to the pros?

    i'd hate to see him guard Marbury for 30 minutes a game
    there's hustle, and there's defensive skills

    Tierre's an offensive player
    hands down
     
  20. saleem

    saleem Contributing Member

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    Moochie is a better player than Tierre Brown. If Rudy thought that Brown could outplay him he would put Moochie on the bench.
     
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