Nick Wright: It Will Take James Harden A Historic Season to Beat Giannis for MVP

So youre trying to make a case for giannis using metrics that harden is best this season

And i believe harden has the best per this season as well

 

I like to consider myself a brutally objective sports fan. I’m also a Cowboys fan and I will tell you that Dak and Zeke are both super overrated.

Harden is putting numbers better than the best Micheal Jordan season ever. What are we even doing!?&?!?

 

Counting stats they are very similar, the metrics you are using there Harden is leading Giannis in. So which is it? Counting stats or advanced stats?

Because imo, Harden is leading in both.

 

So FG% is the magic stat that determines MVP now?

Being the team's best defensive player also determine's MVP of the NBA based on precedent, right?

How could I have ever doubted you Durv, you have changed my mind. Of course Giannis is having a GREATER season than Harden is based on those 2 "metrics".

Never mind all other data and records being broken. Your objectiveness is unsurpassed and we should all bow down to your opinion.

Smh

 

The improvement on the Bucks is not only Giannis’ improvement, but the growth and addition of other players. Middleton was an all star. They have the coach of the year. The play in a lesser conference where the conference champ disappeared from the picture and the best player left, leaving a vacuum.

OTOH, Harden had a crippled team with a backcourt mate on the wrong side of his development in a stronger conference with several up and coming teams, including the team the beforementioned best player from the East joined.

Won’t matter but Harden is the MVP and best player in the league. Hopefully he gets a shot at scoreboard in the finals over Giannis.

 

I'll just put this here...

During the 89-90 season, one player led the NBA in rebounds with 14 per game, led the NBA in blocks with 4.6 per game, was 7th in steals with 2.1, averaged 24.3 points per game, was first in defensive rating, was first in defensive win shares, first in defensive rebound percentage, first in block percentage, and tossed three assists per game for good measure.

That season, Hakeem Olajuwon finished on the second team All-NBA and 7th in MVP voting. He did not win Defensive Player of the Year.

That's 7th--behind Magic, Barkley, Jordan, Malone, Ewing, and Robinson. (Rodman undeservingly won DPOY.)

1992-93 may have been even more egregious as he finished second to Barkley despite having a better scoring average, more steals, more blocks, more rebounds, higher FG%, higher FT%, and only 1.6 fewer assists.

So yeah, this kind of thing has happened before Harden.

 

No.

Sigh ... no.

Defense and field goal efficiency should of course matter in measuring how good a season a player has had.

My statement was very clear regarding Giannis. Your response is careless and your follow up here makes you look like you’re not interested in engaging honestly with what I said.

Imagine if someone asked a bunch of Bucks fans “who has ever averaged 36 ppg and been as efficient as Harden”, and the answer was to mention all the seasons in which someone scored 36 ppg and just ignore the efficiency part. Is it reasonable for them to justify their answer by scoffing “oh, so now efficiency determines the MVP?”

I made a statement about how good a season Giannis was having and how it shouldn’t be dismissed just because Harden is having a spectacular MVP-caliber season in his own right. You proceed to do exactly that, outright ignoring his efficiency and defense like they don’t matter at all.

We can be wowed by and appreciative of what Harden is doing without discrediting what another player is doing. That’s all.

 

You’re a Rockets fan, right? Advanced.

First, I wasn’t making a Giannis vs Harden argument. I was disagreeing with your argument that Giannis hasn’t improved, based on fantasy stats, and so can’t be seen as responsible for his team’s improvement. That is just ridiculous.

Second, you are forcing me to correct you. You said Harden is leading in the metrics I referenced:

Harden: 30.6 PER, .256 WS/48, 11.6 BPM
Giannis: 30.9 PER, .294 WS/48, 10.8 BPM

There are other advanced metrics not on bbref that one could also look at. Some favor Harden (e.g RPM), and some favor Giannis (e.g. PIPM).

The advanced stats case is not conclusive one way or the other.

 

If defense was so important then why has it been completely ignored all the way back KG in 2003-2004?

Because MVP is traditionally an award that recognizes offense as well as winning. Hence there is a DPOY but no OPOY.

And focusing on ONE stat when Harden owns all the other advanced stats is also spurious and agenda driven.

I was being obtuse on purpose to emphasize the disengenious objectivity you spew. I just can't figure out what you love more, playing the devils advocate or shyting on Harden with your passive aggressive BS.

 

I understand you weren’t comparing Giannis and Harden in the previous post, you were commenting on my comment about the video and Embiid having similar stats.
Giannis counting stats are nothing out of the ordinary for elite big men, which is why I pointed out that there are big men this season with similar stat lines.
Advanced metrics as of a week ago Harden was leading, but I agree there’s no real advantage in advanced stats one way or the other, they are both having great seasons......
But only one of those guys is doing something that hasn’t been done before, only one of those guys is in the same stratosphere as Wilt and Jordan while leading his team to a minimum top 3 seed in the West.
Not trying to devalue Giannis season, it’s great and with great team success. Any other year I’d say ok he’s the MVP, but not with what Harden has done this year.

 

I find it interesting that Carter and Walker simply brushed over Nick Wright's point and that is that if Westbrook, Kobe, Durant, Davis, Lebron, Kyrie, Kawhi, or virtually any NBA superstar of the past 20 years had produced the season Harden did, it wouldn't even be a discussion. They would be an unanimous or close to it MVP and Giannis would be a distant 2nd.

Harden literally has to overcome the bias against him to even be considered and the fact even an HISTORIC season is being devalued (as if somehow what he's doing is so simple) shows he's doomed to ever win another MVP.

The rant by Mclean last week was just the first time anyone's been really honest about Harden. They don't like him or his game so regardless of how dominant he is, they won't honor or recognize it.

 

@durvasa is working hard defending MVP Giannis in a Rockets forum.

Who's the Devil's advocate's employer?

 

How do you apportion credit for winning without considering a player’s defense?

That it’s called “MVP” and not “OPOY” should have clued you in that accounting for defense is completely reasonable and expected for an honest, diligent voter. That is NOT the same thing as saying being a plus defender is a requirement. But it has to be a factor.

What on earth are you talking about? I wasn’t comparing Giannis to Harden. I was making a statement about how remarkable Giannis has been this season — leading his team in several categories while being his team’s best offensive and defensive player. You couldn’t stomach that recognition and decide to be “obtuse” in your response, wasting unnecessary bandwidth on this site.

Recognizing how good a season Giannis is having, which would not be seen as an issue here at all if Harden wasn’t competing for MVP, isn’t devil’s advocate or being disingenuous. It’s just being fair to all players involved. Something you’re apparently not interested in.

 

I haven’t made the case for Giannis. Disputing the totally misguided argument that he’s essentially having the same season as last year and therefore isn’t responsible for the Bucks improvement isn’t making a case that Giannis should be MVP. It’s just a call for people to not promote nonsense in order to bolster their argument for Harden.

 

Only one wasting unnecessary bandwidth here is you. No one is disputing that Giannis is having a "good" season. What is ridiculous is comparing a good season, one not much better than his last season, to a historically great one - so great that only Wilt and Michael Jordan have done as well or better in their BEST individual statistical seasons.

Unless you do not consider MJ (or Wilt) to being the greatest ever or having the best seasons in NBA history.

 

Fair enough. As I said in my first post, what Harden is doing is unprecedented and more of a statistical outlier compared to what Giannis is doing. I understand why people would think he’s the MVP on that basis, especially Rockets fans who are appreciated of how he has carried our team in the process.

 

Wilt, no. Discussion for a different thread.

MJ is the GOAT, in my view. The season you are referring to was not his greatest individual season, not close. He was better statistically in each of the following 4 seasons, all of which he scored less points per game.

 

You mean the Bulls were better and had winning records. Jordan never averaged more points in any of his succeeding years.

Very different from Harden, Harden is scoring at historically unprecedented rate and efficiency while WINNING.

Harden has the Rockets at the top of the West while breaking scoring records. Even the GOAT was unable to accomplish that.

 

I don't disagree with you. we're all rooting for James to win it, but Giannis is the more popular player. in the end that's what it comes down to. the voters are tv entertainers not basketball experts.

 

Middleton would not be an all star except for the bucks having a strong record. He’s not that good. 109th in the nba in PER. Typically media reward top teams with more than 1 all star and Middleton was that dude.