It's not a matter of losing the challenge. You lose the timeout regardless, and you must have a timeout left to challenge. Maybe re-read what I wrote. In close games, you lose any timeouts you have above 2 with 3 minutes to play. You can't save-up timeouts for challenges in last 3 minutes of play. And you more often need those 2 timeouts for time mgmt. And your last timeout might have to be made to call the play that you are worried about challenging ... thus, you can't challenge it anyhow, because you needed the timeout to set it up.
I read what you wrote quite clearly it doesn't seem that material to what I was saying. No one cares if a coach saves 2 points in the 1st quarter thanks to a challenge because of the nature of NBA games. The challenge is just as and sometimes more valuable than the timeout, especially since you don't even lose the timeout if you win the challenge. Doc saving his challenge till the end was a good move. You only have one challenge and six timeouts to start the game, yes, you have less in the 4th quarter but you still only have one challenge and that's valuable when you know an NBA ref can basically lose your team the game with an errant whistle. I'd rather have that in my bag than not in the last few minutes of a game. It's just a strategical difference, I suppose, but I would not be surprised to see more coaches hold on to their challenges. EDIT: I see the challenge as an emergency "Uh oh, Refs F'd up again" move. I don't see it as something to be expended because you'd lose a timeout anyway, basically. To me, it would be fine to not use it at all if you never need it.
This isn't my strategy. We are critiquing what coaches are doing, no? I'm just trying to explain a strategy to their thinking. The strategy is that they might want to keep their 2 timeouts in the final 3 minutes for traditional time mgmt. How many times do we see the need to Foul, call timeout to advance the ball, Foul again, call timeout to advance the ball. A lot! And because they must think ahead for preserving timeouts in traditional last minute situations for calling plays and stopping the clock/advancing the ball, it appears most want to use earlier timeouts for challenges, so they don't waste the challenge completely due to having to call timeouts traditionally in last 3 minutes. bottomline: Using the challenge timeout, yet also preserving traditional, late-game time mgmt is what I think many coaches are thinking.
You're talking about the timeouts taken from you because you can't horde TOs throughout the game, I understand that point. I'm talking about when you challenge, if you win, you keep your timeout. That's what happened tonight, Doc had 1 TO, challenged, and won and kept the timeout. I'm not sure what happened in the Rockets game, it looks like the refs were confused and took the timeout anyway and him arguing that is what got him ejected, but the rule states you do keep your timeout if you win the challenge. I don't think the time of the game matters, the rule just says you get your timeout back if the challenge is successful. Well, there is a point there, Doc could have lost that challenge and then had 0 TOs and yes, that would be devastating seeing as there was 7 seconds on the clock and they'd have to advance the ball full court for some wild shot if Gallo hits one FT. I get what you are saying, that coaches may be thinking this, I'm just saying strategy wise I think it is better to just hold onto the challenge as an emergency than worry too much about timeouts because you can control how your team plays and get on your team for making a mistake or missing a shot but that challenge is your one chance to correct a mistake the officials make
fwiw: you lose the timeout regardless in some situations: "the challenging team retains its timeout unless the timeout taken in conjunction with the Challenge initiated a mandatory timeout." That happens more often than it sounds...but never in end game. That's not really what I'm saying. Say you're down 1 with the ball and call your last timeout with 20 seconds left. You run the play, but can no longer challenge. Say you make it. But other team has 5 seconds left to run a play. You can't challenge that, either. Saving for the glamorous challenge is going to take a back seat to calling timeouts the normal way, very often. No matter how much you want to overturn a last-second screw job, what good does it do if you can't, because you first have to use the last timeout to call the most important play of the game, or one after that. And remember, you can only challenge fouls called on your team, in last 2 minutes. just for funs: I just checked all Clipper's games. Rivers has only used a challenge 3 times this season,,,tonight's glamorous one, another one was at 7-minute mark...success/overturned. And one was down 8 points with 33 seconds remaining. That call was upheld, and even if not, too little too late. That's 3 challenges, one was very futile down 8 with 33 seconds left. And 11 games of no challenges. They had several 4th Q comebacks and close games. Not all blowouts.
I’ll take a 1st quarter timeout that shapes how refs view the court every time. If we get those cheap Klay fouls underneath Harden after an early challenge, maybe we win that first game and the series. Early challenges all the way!
Well that makes sense though because everything else nearly the refs can challenge, other than a travel or something, the refs will look at close goaltending and out of bounds call anyway But to your point, if you can't use the challenge because you need the timeout to run a last minute play, then don't use it. That's why I said for emergency situations, you don't have to use it, but it is better to have at that point than to not have and that challenge last night prevented the Clippers from being in a very tough situation. Only thing though is fouls are so subjective. The refs knew what they were doing that game, they simply saw them as Harden kicking out...there is one ref, forget his name, bald black guy, he clearly calls Harden a certain way vs other refs, either he has some hidden grudge with him or he just doesn't like how he 'plays the game' as some people have. So I wonder if it doesn't matter since the foul challenges foolishly are reviewed by the team that makes the call. But I'm still going with 4th qtr challenges. Every possession matters but some possessions matter more, those are in the 4th quarter. I t hink it's like what Malone said about it, changing momentum in the 4th quarter can win you games.
This seems to be exactly what Rivers is using them for, only. He's only used 3 this year, all in the 4th Q. And one likely won a game. To @don grahamleone point, MDA used his 1st one on Giannis bulldozing Tucker for what would have ben PJ's 2rd foul on Giannis in the first 4:30 of the game, instead Giannis' 2nd Foul, who then had to sit. As with Rivers' strategy, that was tactically affective beyond the individual situation, and seemed to have also made a point to the refs. It also contributed greatly to giving the Rockets a special chance to beat Bucks with Giannis fouling out. I think I'm on Rivers' side on this ... your side. Especially in a trial year. I'd want to see how well it works in end-game -- wasting them be damned. But as a Rockets' coach, I know for a fact refs target Harden early in games (to try to change him), so I wouldn't be able to completely swallow my whistle when I think they might have an early agenda.
Yeah, i think that's a good point about the Giannis game, I was just thinking of that when he mentioned using it earlier. It does make sense at that point, yeah. Like during the clipper game if there was a questionable foul that could have kept Westbrook out of major foul trouble, you use it. You are right about Harden. I don't know why that is, I don't think it is a conspiracy just that some of the refs are like some of the fans, they think he's trying to trick them or fool them and sometimes call Off fouls just to say they called them. I think you have the right of it, there are situations where a coach is sensibly using a challenge before the last 2-4 minutes of a game or using them in the first quarter.
