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MVP Shouldn’t Even be a Discussion

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Reeko, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. Swiss Roll

    Swiss Roll Member

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    Giannis was ahead of Harden's MVP season until the last few games. Harden won it at .289 WS/48, a BPM of 10.9, and a VORP of 8.3. Giannis once sat at .290 WS/48 (dropped to .280 as of today, Harden sits at .241), a BPM of +10.8 (down to +10.4, Harden sits at +11.2) and is on pace for a VORP of 8.4 this year (Harden's on pace for an absurd 10.0, and 10.3 if he played all 82, good for 8th all time).

    Curry did win MVP in 14-15 putting up 2018 Harden advanced stats (.288 WS/48, 9.9 BPM, VORP of 7.9) on 34 MPG, its not unreasonable to think Giannis has a shot to replicate that feat.
     
  2. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    You're talking about individual stats? If that's the case it's not that rare, there are plenty.

    But those individual stats + regular season dominance without a legit sidekick + simultaneously best defensive player in the league. That's something else.

    The closest I can think of who did it this way are Hakeem Olajuwon and Kevin Garnett. Tim Duncan and Michael Jordan would be in this group too if not for the fact that they had elite sidekicks (Robinson and Pippen).
     
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  3. Swiss Roll

    Swiss Roll Member

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    I think 2003 Duncan is a great example alongside Hakeem and KG, Robinson was 37 years old, Manu and Tony were in their second seasons, and didn't get all-star appearances until after Duncan secured the #1 seed, destroyed the 3-time defending champion Lakers in the semis, then dispatched the 60-win duo of Dirk and Nash in the Conference Finals on his way to a title. It may be the least talked about MVP season of all time considering what he accomplished.
     
  4. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    This minutes thing is fascinating. I keep thinking that the trend is fewer minutes in general for star players, not strictly MVP's. Elvin Hayes (the reason I became a Rockets fan) averaged 45.1 mpg his rookie season ( rookie of the year with incredible numbers) during the '68-'69 season. Moses Malone averaged 42 mpg his first MVP season and 41 his second. Career averages don't tell the tale. I'm having a late lunch and some beers at a Cajun place in SW Austin, and limited in how much checking of stats that I'm willing to check, but in general, I wonder if there's a trend?
     
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  5. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    Playoffs don't count for regular season MVP, but fair enough.
     
  6. cmmt44

    cmmt44 Member

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    Great analysis! However I believe most usually use 2 to 3 standard deviations from the mean to identify outliers. For this case that would be 4.53 to 6.78 . Under 2SD Giannis is the only outlier. Under interquartile range method using a standard k of 1.5 would signal that a number 4.05 away from median would be outlier. Again, only Giannis.
     
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  7. BreakYoSelfFool

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    Not really rewriting history. He finished 2nd place with 58 first place votes to 65 for Nash. Shaq was the best player on his team that year, their #1 option 60% FG, and 2.3 blocks along with the 22-10. D-Wade surpassed him the next season. Shawn Marion was also better than Nash as well especially with his defensive impact.
     
  8. Swiss Roll

    Swiss Roll Member

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    That's insane he finished 2nd in MVP voting considering Duncan, Amar'e, Manu, KG, and Dirk (the latter 2 tied for 1st in WS/48, with KG ahead everywhere else), all had better seasons.

    Nash was clearly the second best player on that team, and was a huge reason they improved by a massive 33 wins with his addition alone, which was the narrative used to give him the MVP. I assume the same narrative was used for O'Neal, as the heat went from 42 to 59 wins with his addition.

    Marion was nice, but Amar'e was the best player on that team (put up the second highest WS/48 for a 22 year old, only behind 07-08 CP3). Marion became the best player on the 05-06 team, where they managed to win 54 games despite losing a projected 16 wins with the loss of Amar'e.
     
  9. BreakYoSelfFool

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    2nd seed in the West still in reach to put any debate to rest. I think we can run the table, 5 and counting. We really only have about 4 difficult matchups left, we just can't lose anymore easy ones or give up big leagues. Its all in James' hands, keep points and assists high, turnovers low and team rebound.
     
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  10. sirbaihu

    sirbaihu Member

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    Definitely a trend!
    Wilt played 47.8 minute/game in 1961.
    Russell played 45.2 in 1961 and 1962.
    From 1960 to 1968, every MVP played over 44 mpg.
     
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  11. oogie boogie

    oogie boogie Member

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    It is almost is the same thing. You guys are literally using most of the same arguments that those that who voted for Westbrook are making. You're the one that needs to think because you speak.

    1) It's historic! No one else has ever done something like this!

    2) Our team sucks! Plus we have injuries!

    3) He plays in the east! = He has better teammates!

    Some people here are downplaying everything that Giannis is doing is it's despicable. When someone makes a thread that says "it shouldn't even be a discussion" and mostly everyone agrees then those who agreed suddenly reached Jeremy Lin during crunch time levels of stupid. It absolutely should be a discussion on whether or not Giannis should be the MVP because he is averaging incredible numbers, is playing incredibly well, and his team is winning the most games in the league.

    This is 100% some ClutchFans members being whiney spoiled brats who want everything to themselves. Yes, I want James to win the MVP, and I'll have a smug smile about it if he wins it but I will absolutely acknowledge that Giannis is rightfully just as deserving. None of this, "it shouldn't even be a debate!" thing. None of these qualifiers being used to discredit what Giannis or any player in the east is doing. It feels just like what Westbrook voters were doing to Kawhi and Harden in order to discredit their amazing seasons.
     
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  12. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    another MVP moment from Harden with 19 points in the 4th on the road against Toronto

    MVP without question
     
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  13. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    this is how Harden’s MVP case should be framed...40 ppg over a 38 game stretch sounds more ridiculous than the 30 point game streak, and with him averaging 40 ppg since mid-December, the Rockets have gone 28-11 and have climbed from 14th to now currently 3rd in the West after beating Boston and Toronto on the road
     
  14. TracywtFacy

    TracywtFacy Member

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    Anyone see the Starters ep a few days ago? They unanimously gave it to Giannis, basically said it wasn't even a discussion. Hmm
     
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  15. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Contributing Member

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    Jesus Christ. Did I just see multiple posts saying Amare and Marion were better than Steve Nash?

    GTFO with that nonsense.

    Go watch the Suns when Steve Nash was subbed out of the game and tell me Amare and Marion were better. Rubbish!
     
  16. Haymitch

    Haymitch Contributing Member

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  17. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    BREAKING: Stephen A. says Harden is MVP right now.

    I.D.I.O.T. ;)

    Who do you have leading the MVP race right now?

    I have it as James Harden. I understand the Greek Freak has been absolutely exceptional. A couple of weeks ago, Paul George was in the lead as far as I'm concerned. What he was doing was herculean. He was absolutely sensational but then tailed off for a couple of games before having to sit out a few games due to injury.

    Giannis has been formidable, we get that but I think you have to look at the Bucks led by Budenholzer & say this man is the Coach of the Year. He's done an absolutely exceptional job and the help he's gotten from Middleton, Bledsoe, Brogdon & others, it's different than Harden. He's in the East, Harden is in the West. Harden didn't have CP3 at one point. Didn't have Capela at one point. Didn't have Eric Gordon at one point. And nothing changed. This man took it on his shoulders reminding everyone why he's the league MVP. He wasn't only the number one option, he was the only option. This is James Harden, an absolute magician and expert as an offensive scorer in the National Basketball Association. He's simply surreal, unreal, something else to behold and as far as I'm concerned, worthy of being in the lead at this particular moment in time but it's very very close between him & Giannis. And if Paul George comes back and does what he was doing before he went down, it'll be a close three-horse race.
     
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  18. mike2k132

    mike2k132 Member

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    You don't even have to look that far...Giannis is the exact same player last year with just a coach that ain't a idiot n a front office that said maybe we should use analysts n surround him with 3 point shooters lol. Only thing changed is the joined the modern nba
     
  19. Beardaholic13

    Beardaholic13 Member

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    I am watching the bucks game, and i know 1 game shouldnt be used as a barometer but the bucks are MUCH more then just Giannis. Middleton, bledsoe and brogdon are all really really good. At the end of the day IMO anyway you cut it bud deserves coach of the eyar more then giannis deserves MVP.
    I am not saying Giannis doesent deserve MVP but there is no doubt in my mind harden deserves it more.
     
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  20. mike2k132

    mike2k132 Member

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    Naw I think Pacers coach gets that....its nothing special coach wise bud is doing any coach not name kidd wouldnt do
     
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