Mentally ill girl hanged from Crane at age 16 by Iran's "Morality Police"

Not what has happened in the past necessarily - I wouldn't say someone should be a slave. That we used to have slavery doesn't prohibit me from condemning slavery or make me a hypocrite for doing so. Certainly when discussing what is right or wrong we can consider the rationale behind others views. I don't think you can advance a rationale that is legitimate to hanging a woman for having sex with an unmarried man. Can you? Saying "It is their culture" is not enough.

 

Nazis had the sole authority to carry out the 'law of the land' within its territory as a sovereign entity. Does that mean they are above reproach?

 

I have a feeling this didn't really happen.....

the daily mirror is basically the national enquirer of england..

Can anyone find info on this story in a reputable paper ( NYT, Washington post, AP, reuters, something??)

America has a long history of making up horror stories about the leaders/people of countries we are about to invade (see Japan and Iraq for numerous examples)

 

Reality dictates that there are other cultures and that we inevitably have to 'live' with that fact; I never said you can't criticize certain aspects of other cultures.

Whoa! So you're saying that the Chinese should force their values down your throat? Or are you saying that the Europeans should shove their values down the throats of us 'backwards' Americans? That's a recipe for disaster, and that's exactly what the rest of the world takes offense to.

Again, nothing wrong with that...

You can state your opinion, but you can't force it on the rest of the world; that seems to be what you're advocating here.

You seem to indicate a willingness to 'eliminate' certain cultural practices that you don't approve of. If Islam is the dominant culture, then where does that leave you? I didn't say that you wanted to 'Christianize' others, but you certainly seem to advocate pushing our norms on the rest of the world...same idea, different values.

 

Ummm no offense to the Christian base, but who are usually the ones associated with bombings of abortion clinics?


Also, I consider Bush to be a lunatic frindge of the Christian powerhouse. Ban on gay marriages, Stem Cells, Abortions, prayers, death sentences...ect ect.

 

But that's just it: right and wrong is mostly (not entirely) relative. For example: Americans by and large wouldn't think twice about pre-marital sex. On the other hand, the vast majority of Muslims consider pre-marital sex and adultry a 'sin' and an immoral act that can destroy the very fabric of society.

So yes, they certainly could provide a 'rationale' (and a compelling one, from their pov) for their laws.

 

OK. Yes, other cultures exist and will continue to exist. And? That doesn't mean every

If they are right, then yes. American was one of the last to prohibit slavery. We are not above being 'wrong' on an issue. I would not advance that we should have continued slavery because it was part of the southern culture or the african culture - and expected you to say 'oh yeah, that's right - it was part of their culture.'

I would imagine that any culture would take offense to being told one of their practices is silly, stupid, or wrong. I wouldn't allow that to stop me from pointing out a wrong when I see it. I am disappointed you would.

I think you're drawing another strawman. As you pointed out the 'rest of the world' is not a homogenous entity - so really we're talking about many different cultures. I never said conquer the world and subjegate everyone to my opinion of what is right or wrong. However I think its a bit hypocritical to declare something is wrong and then act as if any further step to stop the practice is somehow unthinkable.

Certainly I advocate working to change or eliminate cultural practices that are wrong. Only someone who asserts that cultures are sacrosanct would have a problem with that and it presupposes the falsity that most cultural changes for the better were internal, not external. Female genital mutilation is practiced in many places. It is wrong. I don't have any problem saying it is wrong or that we should do what we can to stop the practice. What is YOUR problem with that position?

If Islam is the dominant culture then I am in the minority. And?

 

I don't see how this equates anywhere near the level of a lunatic fringe of raping an adolescent girl before killing her...Sorry don't buy your attempts...The GOVERNMENT (see blazer what I mean) of Iran does this and so much, much more...If you interject a qualifier against the United States, perhaps you should address where you stand in comparison of the lunatic fringe of leaders of Iran, and the U.S. from your viewpoint...Otherwise your generalization leads me to believe you see prayers just as bad as hanging a mentally ill girl from a crane or other heinous acts...

 

Oh yeah, now we're responsible for the story.


Did you even attempt to look over the gazillion web pages on this? How about these for starters:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde130362004

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5217424.stm

 

I think 'the vast majority of Muslims' is a vast overstatement but I'll take a look at your raw data.

You can't have it both ways: either one can make an assessment that a cultural action is wrong and should be criticised and if possible stopped or one can't. You say one cannot except where a bunch of us outside the culture say we can - like with genocide. That's not a brightline, tiger. You are picking the practices you don't agree with just as I am.

 

The Iranians are not carrying out genocide against a minority; it's hardly analogous. But just in case you forgot, the Nazis were expansionists who attacked and occupied neighboring countries...the British, French, and the U.S. did not fight Hitler to save the Jews. But that's really beside the point...

Let's first identify what 'universal values' are. It seems to me that 'universal values' would imply a certain 'consensus' among the world's nations on what is right and what is wrong (for example: the UN charter spells out certain political and social values that the majority of the world's nations have come to agree upon). If we're to discuss outside-of-marriage sex in this case, I don't believe that there is a consensus on it one way or the other. Meanwhile, we do have a consensus on genocide/ethnic cleansing, whether or not we 'selectively' enforce that standard is irrelevant.

 

How about a concensus on the punishment for sex outside of marriage? I guess not...

 

What is there to debate about this?

 

The Nazis might if they didn't double cross the Russians and declare war on the US.

There's signs that other leaders are beginning to stand and fight US.

In other topics of this forum, there's cases of how power can corrupt organized religion. It's not a stretch to assume that it can also corrupt the liberators.

I guess Iraq hasn't taught us a single damn thing. Instead, the voices are getting louder.

 

Not government sponsored bombings of abortion clinics....again, the Christian Wackos are not in charge.

As for Bush....I too think he is an idiotic moron, but not a wacko.

DD

 

Oh but they are, they are very related, especially when you consider the state sponsored support of Hezzbollah, or the announcement from Iran that they want to wipe out Israel.

Sounds the same to me.

DD

 

Who the hell determines what's 'right' and 'wrong'? You or the Muslims or the Buddhists or the Hindus? I am conceding that there are 'universal values', I am just saying that they are limited to a number of issues upon which most cultures and nations have come to an agreement on; for instance the world came to the conclusion that racism is wrong, that genocide is wrong, etc.

Again, you're more than welcome to criticize anyone on any number of things, are you having some sort of a 'mental block' or what? This is the third time I have said this. Feel free to ignore it once more...

The problem here is that you can criticize them, and they can criticize you, who becomes the 'arbitrator' here? Who's right and who's wrong? How do we determine that? There is such a wide range of issues that people within the same culture disagree on, let alone people from different cultures. Americans certainly don't agree on a number of fundamental moral/ethical issues, how do you propose promoting our 'values' abroad if we don't even agree on everything? Who is right and who's wrong here? Who is the 'Decider'?

All 'wrongs' are not created equal, I think we can at least agree on that much. A genocide is not the same as one perceived act of 'injustice' in Iran.

You are welcome to try...

I don't have a problem with that position, I agree with it. Now let me flip this on you: Some around the world believe that the death penalty is 'inhumane' and wrong, and are trying to do something about it, what is YOUR problem with that position, considering that the U.S. carries out that practice? Should the Europeans lecture us endlessly on that? Would you be OK if they tried to force us to change?

LOL! And what does that mean? Does it mean that you have to conform to the dominant culture and what they perceive to be 'right' or 'wrong'?

Look, I am not pretending that there is an easy answer here, I am merely interested in showing you that it's much more complicated than you make it out to be. There is much more 'depth' to this topic and we can certainly waste an entire month on it if we wanted to, and still won't have come up with an adequate 'solution'.

That's really my argument...

 

Exactly my point, which is why each culture/nation is going about it 'their way'.

There is no consensus either way. Generally speaking (overgeneralizing here), secular Western culture doesn't have a problem with it, while many Eastern cultures (not just Muslim, btw) take it very seriously, not to mention punish it.

 

WTF?!!! Dude, you're all over the damn place...get a grip! We're talking about your comparison of this one incident to a genocidal dictator. The support of Hezbollah is a way for the Iranians to protect their strategic interests, it's politics, not genocide! As for the language regarding Israel, it's disturbing to say the least, however, talking about wiping the 'Zionist regime' and actually committing genocide (i.e. the Nazis, Milosovic) are two entirely different things. Talking about killing someone makes you a wacko, committing genocide makes you a murderer.

Are we honestly having this conversation? I understand you're not a fan of the current government in Iran, but that doesn't give you a 'creative license' to equate mere rhetoric to genocide...that's ridiculous.