I keep thinking to myself, if we really did trade Steve, what is he worth, seems to me it is important to compare him to other max contract players and maybe that will give us all a better idea where does he rate in franchise players, ie those players who have masssive, usuall max contracts?? seems to me sometimes that because of this bbs love of criticism that we undervalue is value around the league... sure he has his faults but it seems to the national media and the general nba fan he is a darling and star... i mean how else does he keep getting voted to the all-star game.... Not exactly sure which contracts are max or not, as some are signed under the old cba so took all contract for this year that are above 10 million for the year, i also removed some players that signed ridiculous contracts under the old CBA, ie like Mutumbo, Kemp, Ostertag, please suggest other players who i may have left out. (the number infront of there names refer to their order in term of highest contracts) Guards 4. Allan Houston (NY) ......... $15,937,500 8. Ray Allen (Sea) ............ $13,500,000 8. Kobe Bryant (LAL) .......... $13,500,000 8. Allen Iverson (Phi) ........ $13,500,000 8. Stephon Marbury (Pho) ...... $13,500,000 18. Michael Finley (Dal) ....... $13,281,250 19. Tracy McGrady (Orl) ........ $13,279,750 19. Jalen Rose (Tor) ........... $13,279,750 23. Jason Kidd (NJ) ............ $13,152,000 28. Damon Stoudamire (Por) ..... $12,375,000 29. Eddie Jones (Mia) .......... $12,333,750 32. Nick Van Exel (GS) ......... $11,956,625 35. Paul Pierce (Bos) .......... $11,326,219 40. Baron Davis (NO) ........... $10,960,000 40. Steve Francis (Hou) ........ $10,960,000 Forwards 1. Kevin Garnett (Min) ........ $28,000,000 3. Rasheed Wallace (Por) ...... $17,000,000 4. Chris Webber (Sac) ......... $15,937,500 8. Shareef Abdur-Rahim (Atl) .. $13,500,000 8. Antonio McDyess (NY) ....... $13,500,000 8. Latrell Sprewell (Min) ..... $13,500,000 19. Grant Hill (Orl) ........... $13,279,750 19. Keith Van Horn (NY) ........ $13,279,750 23. Jermaine O'Neal (Ind) ...... $13,152,000 25. Antonio Davis (Chi) ........ $12,925,000 27. Antoine Walker (Dal) ....... $12,500,000 30. Brian Grant (Mia) .......... $12,130,648 33. Tim Thomas (Mil) ........... $11,825,000 35. Vince Carter (Tor) ......... $11,326,219 35. Antawn Jamison (Dal) ....... $11,326,219 35. Dirk Nowitzki (Dal) ........ $11,326,219 40. Elton Brand (LAC) .......... $10,960,000 40. Shawn Marion (Pho) ......... $10,960,000 44. Glenn Robinson (Phi) ....... $10,730,000 Centres 2. Shaquille O'Neal (LAL) ..... $24,749,999 8. Zydrunas Ilgauskas (Cle) ... $13,500,000 26. Tim Duncan (SA) ............ $12,676,125 31. Vlade Divac (Sac) .......... $12,051,510 45. Theo Ratliff (Atl) ......... $10,156,250 In the Guards, for me, i would probably only have Allen, Kobe, AI, McGrady, Baron, Pierce, and Marbury ahead of him in value...... after Steve then there is large drop of in value.... Only Duncan and Shaq from the group of Centres i would rate ahead of Steve, the rest are poooo.... Garnett, Dirk, Jermaine and Brand stand way above Steve in value from the forwards, Marion, Carter, Webber, Reef and maybe Jamison are on a similar level to Steve for me... after that there is steep drop off in players compared to Steve.....
Smeg, you are one of the last people here I expected to start a thread which will definitely turn into a bash thread. We really are hopeless now.
hope not, not bashing at all just trying to work out where he sits in the scheme of the league and highly paid players... if anything this list at least shows, even with his reduced numbers, on numbers alone his producing alot more for the dollar than plenty other well known players...... this is a bash free thread... my last remaining attempt at a thread for a decent discussion about things without bashing....... not sure why can't in this GARM discuss stuff without it becoming bashing....
Sorrry, but... after noticing the way JVG works, Allan Houston for Steve, doesnt seem too farfetched.
After scanning the list of these so-called max-contrct players, SF does not look so overpaid any more.
Thanks, Smeg. It's a splash of cold water in the face to look at those lists. Some of those contracts are really staggering when you consider the player and just what he does for his team. Van Exel, for example, makes a million more per year and isn't having nearly the season Francis is having and this is the worst he's had if you take out the "migraine" debacle. During his career he hasn't averaged nearly the minutes per game, either. His assist to turnover ratio is much better, but Francis brings a lot of other things to the table. Francis is a far better rebounder... it's not remotely close. He's better at steals and blocks. I know stats don't tell the whole story, but this is a guy I've seen Steve compared unfavorably to on more than one occasion. I looking at some of the rest, but that was the first comparison I did. This is fun.
I don't think the issue was ever that he was overpaid, but rather that he was not the best player for this team (at the point guard position, anyway).
for those interested, here some more players with contracts over 7 million, quite a few here have new deals starting in this year or last that will get larger over time Guards 47. Mike Bibby (Sac) ........... $9,500,000 48. Kerry Kittles (NJ) ......... $9,266,666 52. Gilbert Arenas (Was) ....... $8,536,000 54. Jason Terry (Atl) .......... $8,333,333 56. Andre Miller (Den) ......... $8,000,000 56. Wally Szczerbiak (Min) ..... $8,000,000 61. Derek Anderson (Por) ....... $7,794,000 62. Wesley Person (Por) ........ $7,700,000 68. Bonzi Wells (Mem) .......... $7,000,000 Forwards 46. Lamar Odom (Mia) ........... $9,963,596 50. Toni Kukoc (Mil) ........... $9,056,250 53. Jamal Mashburn (NO) ........ $8,525,000 55. Raef LaFrentz (Bos) ........ $8,178,750 56. P.J. Brown (NO) ............ $8,000,000 60. Maurice Taylor (Hou) ....... $7,800,000 63. Alan Henderson (Atl) ....... $7,682,188 64. Austin Croshere (Ind) ...... $7,610,000 67. Rashard Lewis (Sea) ........ $7,012,987 68. Corey Maggette (LAC) ....... $7,000,000 Centres 49. Dale Davis (Por) ........... $9,061,875 51. Greg Ostertag (Uta) ........ $8,666,666 59. Erick Dampier (GS) ......... $7,842,000 65. Kelvin Cato (Hou) .......... $7,344,000 66. Marcus Camby (Den) ......... $7,250,000 68. Brad Miller (Sac) .......... $7,000,000 btw thanks Sam and Deck and others
nice job, it is nice to see that it isnt as bad for us as much as other teams. this shows that , on one hand, for equal value, other teams have guys like baron, marion, brand and, for a little more, someone like dirk. On the other hand, for much more you can get ripped off by a star like keith van horn, allan houston, damon stoudamire, mcdyss, brian grant, tim thomas and grant hill. Lets just hope that steve doesnt join that list be becoming a hill or penny hardaway after his skills go away. as for now, im more satisfied knowing what he actually earns compared to others.
Thanks a lot for this thread, Smeg. Unfortunately it will get a lot of views and not many posts. In that second list, only Bibby, Wally, and Odom approach Steve in value. In the first list I'd tak McGrady, Kobe, Kidd, AI, Baron, maybe Marbury and Pierce over Francis. I felt that Francis deserved the max when he got it and I still do- I don't think his level of play at present merits it, but I truly believe that the player he is merits it. It may take playing with a different coach in a different situation for him to bloom, but he will eventually be a top 10 or top 5 scoring guard in this league with ridiculous rebounds and decent assists. Can he realize that with JVG. Dunno. And I'm not sure which to blame.
Guys on these lists I would rather have than Francis: 8. Ray Allen (Sea) ............ $13,500,000 8. Kobe Bryant (LAL) .......... $13,500,000 8. Allen Iverson (Phi) ........ $13,500,000 8. Stephon Marbury (Pho) ...... $13,500,000 19. Tracy McGrady (Orl) ........ $13,279,750 23. Jason Kidd (NJ) ............ $13,152,000 35. Paul Pierce (Bos) .......... $11,326,219 40. Baron Davis (NO) ........... $10,960,000 1. Kevin Garnett (Min) ........ $28,000,000 4. Chris Webber (Sac) ......... $15,937,500 23. Jermaine O'Neal (Ind) ...... $13,152,000 35. Vince Carter (Tor) ......... $11,326,219 35. Antawn Jamison (Dal) ....... $11,326,219 35. Dirk Nowitzki (Dal) ........ $11,326,219 40. Elton Brand (LAC) .......... $10,960,000 40. Shawn Marion (Pho) ......... $10,960,000 2. Shaquille O'Neal (LAL) ..... $24,749,999 26. Tim Duncan (SA) ............ $12,676,125 47. Mike Bibby (Sac) ........... $9,500,000 53. Jamal Mashburn (NO) ........ $8,525,000 67. Rashard Lewis (Sea) ........ $7,012,987
Rockets management settled for mediocrity when they locked themselves into long-term contracts with a group of players who couldn't get to the playoffs unless they bought tickets. There's a difference with just being competitive and wanting to win it all. Rockets are just trying to be competitive now.
I'd say SF is a max player, but maybe not a JVG type of player. SF for EB Maybe if we repeat that enough, it will come true Raven
agreed. i think he is worth what we pay him. You also have to take into account for what he brings to this club besides all the arguments that all the SF Haters bring up all the time. He DOES make it to the highlight reels on ESPN and he DOES add an exciting element to this team. Thats why he is in the allstar game even if he is having the worst season of his career. He is the most recognisable person in Houston, that sells jerseys and merchandice makes the team money.