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Kyrie Irving traded for Isaiah Thomas

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by alexcapone, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. zeeshan2

    zeeshan2 Member

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  2. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    PhilCollins likes this.
  3. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    yeah the pick make it a bit much bc its likely to be a very good pick but by passing on george and butler already, they still got a pretty good impact player in kyrie whose younger with his best years of basketball coming
     
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  4. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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  5. jamisonrocket

    jamisonrocket Member
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  6. BackdoorHarden

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    Chris Forsberg on ESPN talking about trade... dude has BIG GLASSESSSS
     
  7. RedRedemption

    RedRedemption 대한민국, 화이팅!
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    They aren't going to unload Love for Melo to make a horizontal move.

    The only thing we have to fear is New York taking Shump/fillers + Nets pick for Melo.
     
  8. Rox11

    Rox11 Member

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    My opinion is isiah just isn't a number one option for a team, and he's got this injury and on top of it will be requesting a max contract. Celtics could lose him for nothing.
     
  9. hoopster325

    hoopster325 Member

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    Yes of course, they need to make minutes available. But the reason Boston even at full health was not going to get past Cleveland last year was their lack of interior presence, not because IT needed to be replaced.

    They could have flipped Crowder + Brooklyn pick for Marc Gasol, Hassan Whiteside or Lamarcus Aldridge.

    They probably could have traded just Crowder + Zizic and another asset for Valancuinas who Toronto was trying to deal this offseason. Or for Vucevic.

    They still have weaknesses and harmed their future dealing away the BKN pick.

    And they just overhauled their ENTIRE team this offseason.

    Only players they return this year are Smart, Gerald Green, Horford, Rozier and Brown.

    Tatum, Hayward, Kyrie, Yabasule, Baynes, Marcus Morris, Abdel Nader, Shane Larkin and Olejeye.

    Lot of new blood, and Horford & Kyrie are two of the most injury prone starters in the NBA.
     
  10. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    this interior thing is a bit overrated. the reason boston didn't beat cleveland this past year was not just bc of interior, Clev was just the better team period. perimeter play trumps interior during this era by far. boston at the end of the day didnt value IT as their future max player. nothing really wrong with that bc many would agree he really isn't. people that follow houston should understand value more than anyone. Their future is still in good hands when theyre clearly one of the best teams in the east and again if lebron leaves the absolute best in the east by far imo. They still have taytum and brown. boston looks very good for the foreseeable future to me
     
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  11. xiki

    xiki Contributing Member

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    What makes this deal work for C's is question of IT making it thru the season w/his hip.

    EC Finals? 11 of 15...gone! Reload!
     
  12. hoopster325

    hoopster325 Member

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    Millsap & Hayward changed teams too and Hayward definitely top 20, Millsap borderline but could make an argument over him as more important player to a teams success than either Thomas or Kyrie for sure,
     
  13. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    Celtics? Maybe you meant the Cavs since Celts already traded him. Cavs wouldn't let him walk they saved a lot of money since they lost Irving's salary. In fact they will save more money if they get rid of Irving because they wouldn't have to pay Irving's super max salary which he would have been eligible for. As far as injuries are concerned iirc Irving has had injuries of his own so I dunno what makes him such a superior option that Celts give up their likely no 1 pick.

    I mean no 1 option is so subjective Kyrie was the no 1 option how come they couldn't even reach the playoffs before Lebron got there? Isiah Thomas was not seen as a no 1 option but if he was playing with Lebron and Love last year he would have been the one in the Finals so would people still question him as a no 1 option?
     
  14. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    Welcome 'home' Jae Crowder! ;)

    June 28, 2012: Drafted by the Cleveland Cavaliers in the 2nd round (34th pick) of the 2012 NBA Draft.
    June 29, 2012: Traded by the Cleveland Cavaliers with Jared Cunningham and Bernard James to the Dallas Mavericks for Kelenna Azubuike and Tyler Zeller.

    _________________________________

    http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/sto...homas-deal-boston-celtics-cleveland-cavaliers

    The deal

    Cavaliers get: Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic, Nets' 2018 first-round pick

    Celtics get: Kyrie Irving

    Cleveland Cavaliers: A

    The timing of Irving's trade request heading into what could be the final season of LeBron James' contract (he holds a player option for the 2018-19 season) put rookie Cavaliers GM Koby Altman in a tricky situation. Should Cleveland prioritize trying to win a championship now with James on the roster or start thinking about a potential future without him?

    This trade allowed the Cavaliers to accomplish both goals simultaneously.

    There's a case to be made that adding Thomas and Crowder gives Cleveland a better chance of winning the 2018 NBA championship than the Cavaliers would have had keeping Irving. Crowder is precisely the kind of 3-and-D contributor Cleveland needed to better match up with the Golden State Warriors and hadn't yet added this offseason. (Jeff Green, signed for the veteran's minimum, doesn't count as a player of that caliber.)

    Crowder can play the role Richard Jefferson filled during the Cavaliers' comeback from a 3-1 deficit against Golden State in the 2016 NBA Finals, playing alongside James at forward and defending either Kevin Durant or Draymond Green while also having the capability of switching out on the Warriors' guards. While Crowder's 39.8 percent 3-point shooting last season looks out of place with the rest of his career, he's a capable enough outside shooter to keep defenders honest and be more valuable than Jefferson at the other end of the court.

    Getting two starting-caliber players -- it's unclear whether Crowder might start alongside James on the wing or come off the bench -- for one dramatically improves Cleveland's depth, which should help the Cavaliers manage James' minutes during the regular season.

    The hope of Cleveland being better in 2017-18 does rest on Thomas' health. He suffered a torn hip labrum during last year's postseason that sidelined Thomas after Game 2 of last year's Eastern Conference finals against the Cavaliers. Doctors determined over the summer that surgery was not necessary, but Celtics head coach Brad Stevens recently told Chris Mannix that the team wouldn't be sure of Thomas' timetable for training camp until after a scan in early September.

    While adding Crowder is a clear win, Cleveland does downgrade to some extent at point guard. Granted, Thomas was a better player in the 2016-17 regular season than Irving; he used a higher share of his team's plays and scored more efficiently, which landed him a spot on the All-NBA Second Team while Irving wasn't selected to any of the three teams. But Irving matched his offensive performance in the playoffs, part of a consistent trend of postseason improvement. And while both players have been defensive liabilities, Irving's issues have more to do with effort than size, allowing him to improve defensively in the crucible of the playoffs.

    Boston has matched up well with Golden State with Thomas at point guard, but largely because former backcourt-mate Avery Bradley allowed the Celtics to crossmatch defensively. Some of the defensive gain the Cavaliers make in a potential Finals rematch with the Warriors is offset by replacing Irving with Thomas.

    Even if you don't believe this trade makes Cleveland more likely to win the 2018 championship, the fact that it's even debatable is a huge win for the Cavaliers. It's unclear whether keeping Irving was realistic after his desire to get out of James' shadow was reported as an explanation for his trade request, and it would be hard to beat the short-term value of this package in an Irving trade. Above and beyond that, Cleveland also adds long-term value in 2018-19 and beyond by getting the Brooklyn Nets' 2018 first-round pick.

    Though the Nets have improved the team that finished with the NBA's worst record a year ago, projections based on ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) have Brooklyn in the league's bottom five on average. The average simulation based on those projections has the Nets' pick coming up fifth overall, with a reasonable chance (around 9 percent) of it landing No. 1 overall a second consecutive year.

    In the event James walks away next summer, the Cavaliers can let Thomas leave as well and kick start their rebuilding effort with (in all likelihood) a lottery pick in hand. In such a scenario, Crowder would surely have plenty of trade value with two years and approximately $15 million remaining on his contract. Overlooked in this deal, Cleveland also gets a useful center prospect in Ante Zizic, the No. 23 pick of the 2016 Draft who has posted strong numbers overseas despite limited athleticism.

    Things actually get a little trickier if James stays, in which case re-signing Thomas would push Cleveland's payroll deeper into the luxury-tax stratosphere. (For this season, the Cavaliers potentially save more than $30 million in taxes because the three players they added make less combined than Irving.) But at this point, that's a problem the Cavaliers would be thrilled to have. And this trade solves several others for Cleveland.

    Boston Celtics: C

    As much as I love this trade for the Cavaliers, I don't necessarily hate it for the Celtics, in no small part because the teams are operating on slightly different timelines. For Cleveland, it's mostly about next season, making Thomas' expiring contract actually somewhat ideal. From Boston's standpoint, Thomas' impending free agency meant a difficult decision.

    As he's repeatedly made clear, Thomas expects a max deal next summer as an unrestricted free agent. I'm not convinced such an offer is forthcoming given the limited number of teams who project to have cap space, but either way re-signing Thomas would mean handing a lucrative, long-term contract to a 5-foot-9 point guard heading into his 30s. (Thomas will turn 29 during the upcoming season.)

    Re-signing Thomas would have pushed the Celtics deep into the luxury tax and meant tying up the vast majority of their payroll in two players (Thomas and Al Horford) in the back half of their careers. Boston might have been able to survive that with internal development from the numerous young prospects on the roster, but that would have been tricky to manage.

    From an age standpoint, the 25-year-old Irving fits neatly between the Celtics' youngsters and fellow newcomer Gordon Hayward (age 27). As noted, his playoff track record suggests Boston has upgraded when it really counts for a team that should be favored to reach the Eastern Conference finals each of the next two seasons. So, overall, he's unquestionably an upgrade on Thomas despite the strong performance of the incumbent Celtics point guard.

    The question, then, is whether Irving is enough of an upgrade to merit giving up so much else. And that's where my answer is less positive.

    The loss of Crowder shouldn't be minimized. His RPM rating ranked him 20th in the league last season -- better than Irving or Thomas. That rating surely flatters Crowder's impact, but he's a versatile role player on one of the league's best contracts. Trading him simultaneously weakens Boston and strengthens the rival Cavaliers, a fascinating and unusual aspect of this trade between the top two teams in the East.

    The loss of Crowder further compromises the Celtics' depth, a strength the last two-plus seasons since Thomas' arrival. Suddenly, Boston has lost six of the seven players who saw the most minutes for the team last season. (Only Horford remains.)

    The Celtics are counting on recent lottery picks Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum to fill in those minutes, but neither figures to be nearly as effective in 2017-18 in terms of helping the team win as Crowder was. (I'd bet against them surpassing Crowder in 2018-19 too.) I think this trade makes Boston less likely to earn the East's No. 1 seed next season, and probably less likely to reach the NBA Finals.

    Assuming the Celtics can re-sign Irving when he reaches unrestricted free agency in the summer of 2019 (he holds a 2019-20 player option), they've got enough time for the young guys to mature around him. And James' potential departure could clear a path to the NBA Finals for Boston. So I understand what Boston was thinking here. But ultimately I'm not sure I would have given up this much to get Irving.
     
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  15. Downtown Sniper

    Downtown Sniper Consummate Professional
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    I may be wrong here, but I'm absolutely certain there's another team everyone 'has to get better' for, miles ahead of the Rockets.
     
  16. BackdoorHarden

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    nah. Warriors didn't make anymore.

    It was the Rockets that started all the off season move because of the Shocking Chris Paul trade. Because of the Rockets getting chris paul, the rest of the NBA is trying to get better and this has make the NBA the #1 sport even in the off season.

    It used to all about Football talk, now it's all NBA talk because of the Rockets
     
  17. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    “This trade needed to include both players and assets that we felt strongly could help us continue to compete for championships and we believe it does,” said Altman. “We look forward to Isaiah, Jae and Ante joining us and also felt that the unprotected first round pick in the deal was very important for us and our future as well.”

    “On behalf of the entire franchise, I want to thank Kyrie Irving for the six impressive years he spent in Cleveland wearing the Cavaliers uniform,” said Cavaliers Chairman Dan Gilbert. “From the moment we won the 2011 NBA lottery that put us in position to draft Kyrie to the ‘The Shot’ that sealed our first NBA championship and all of the electrifying play that made him a joy to watch, 'excitement' was always in the air when it came to Kyrie Irving. We wish him and his family well as he moves on to the next phase of his NBA career.”
     
  18. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

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    Boston could have nabbed Butler AND George for those Brooklyn picks.

    Thomas
    Butler
    George
    Horford

    Danny Ainge is ****ing awful
     
  19. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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  20. Downtown Sniper

    Downtown Sniper Consummate Professional
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    No, I'm pretty sure it's potentially the best basketball team of all time, which is making other teams try to get better.
     
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