It's getting harder and harder to say Hakeem was better than Shaq

Defensively Shaq doesn't come close to what Russell and Hakeem did. He doesn't have the timing that they did on their blocked shots, and even if he's among the leaders in bpg season in and season out, he still won't hold a candle to those two.

Shaq has no face to the basket game. I know he doesn't need it, but in reality he doesn't have the skills to have a face up game. He doesn't have a follow through on his shot, and looks like he shotputs the ball on his freethrows. Many have said that it's a weak argument to say he has no skills because look at him make those touch shots. The sad part about Shaq's offensive game is that his range only extends to about 8 feet when his back's to the basket, and even that is a stretch. People say that players of similar size aren't able to do the things that Shaq does, but really players "close" in size to Shaq equals players that are 50-70 pounds lighter than him. I'll concede the fact that he's the most physically dominating center of all time.

You could also say Shaq had a better supporting cast, but in wide spread public opinion Shaq already is or will be considered a better player than Hakeem was. I just have a real hard time labeling Shaq the best ever with an offensive game as limited as his. He doesn't need anymore to his offensive repetoire, but he couldn't add anything to it even if he wanted to.

You could go into the fact that Shaq went up against a centerless league in his prime, but I hardly see that fact taken into account by most sportswriters.

If he wins anymore titles, he'll automatically be considered a better center than Hakeem was by media and the common fans alike. Like you said though, I don't know if any other player could have led that team to a title like Hakeem did.

Shaq had one hell of a supporting cast with Jones, Campbell, Van Exel among others and got beaten down by the Spurs in the conference finals. That team was arguably more talented than the current Lakers team but Shaq couldnt take them to the next level. Do you think the Lakers greatness has more to do with Shaq's improvement or Kobe turning into a stud and forming the inside/outside combo they dreamed of? I'd have to say the latter had more to do with the Laker's recent success.

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[This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited June 17, 2001).]

 

"You cannot compare the two on numbers anymore--Shaq's are just much, much better -- both playoff and regular season"

-Regular season, I'll agree. Postseason, the numbers are about a wash. Hakeem averages 26.6 PPG in the playoffs for his career, Shaq is at about 28.5. Shaq's FG % is .560 while Hakeem's is .530. Hakeem has the big edge in FT shooting. Blocks and steals, Hakeem has the edge. Shaq does have an edge in REB in the playoffs i think.

"Let's say Shaq's defense doesn't improve at all, and he wins, say, two more rings. Are we going to be able to say that Hakeem is still better because of his defense, even when Shaq's got the edge in stats and rings? "

-Well, gee, look at the incredible talent the man has been surrounded with in LA and Orlando. He SHOULD end up with more rings than Olajuwon when you look at the supporting casts each player had to work with. Kobe Bryant is clearly the best 2 guard in the NBA right now.


"I don't think there's another player that has ever played, that could've won a title with that cast of players or with a cast of similar quality. The problem is, most people see that as a sign of the quality of play in the league being terrible during that time, not of Hakeem's greatness. "

-Well, that shows how biased people are. Consider the teams the Rockets beat in the 94 season. Phoenix (lost to the Bulls in 93), Utah (lost to the Bulls twice in the late 90's), and NY (always lost to the Bulls in the East playoffs).

The Rockets of 94 were beating the same EXACT teams that the Bulls were beating. Yet, when the Bulls won it was because MJ was the greatest player ever, but when the Rockets won all of a sudden those same teams were weak?...That's ludicrous.

And I do agree with you. Hakeem is just about the only player ever who could have taken such a weak supporting cast all the way to the title. I don't think we win back then if we had Shaq instead of Hakeem (the Shaq of 01). We wouldn't have been as strong defensively.

"What mainly holds him back is that he didn't sustain his greatness for long enough. "

-I agree with that. I think Hakeem from 93-96 was playing at a level that no center has EVER played at, but before that he did have some deficiencies as a passer and wasn't quite as unstoppable as he was in that great 4 year stretch.

"I'm finding it extremely difficult to come up with a rational argument for Hakeem being a better player than Shaquille O'Neal. Since Shaq is only 29, the good news is I may not need to worry about trying to come up with that argument, since it most likely won't exist for too much longer. "

-Here's my argument. The gap between the greatness of Hakeem's defensive prowess vs. Shaquille's is greater than the gap between O'Neal's offensive dominance vs. Hakeem's.

-Also, the league is just so so so weak at Center right now. Hakeem had to face off with Ewing in his prime, Robinson in his prime, Mourning in his, a young but still damn good O'Neal, and Mutombo in his prime.

Who exactly is Shaq's comp right now?...No one!

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Get Cato out of there...

 

shaq has kobe, olajuwon had nobody the first year and an aging drexler the next. if olajuwon had jordan like shaq has kobe , i think hakeem would of had around 10 championships.

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http://www.al-gore-2004.org/


mgh 1924 - 2001



[This message has been edited by dc rock (edited June 17, 2001).]

 

Between 85 and 96 name one center that was better and we can compare stats. Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Lambeer, Jabar? Dreams greatness was extended well past a decade.

One other thing. Dream won the only head to head between himself and Shaq in a championship series. Sorry Shaq you had your chance but my vote stays with Hakeem.

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[This message has been edited by crash5179 (edited June 17, 2001).]

 

There were a couple of years there (it wasn't anymore than 2 or 3) where Hakeem was not only really good on the offensive end but a complete terror on defense. Think about how this years 76'ers team is built from the ground up around Allen Iverson, and I think you can really make strong comparisons to the 92-94 Rockets teams.

Also, I know it doesn't matter on the bottom line, but greatness is a subjective matter, and subjectively Hakeems incredible gracefullness, rhythm, and dexterity makes him a better player than Shaq in my mind. The watchability of Hakeem dream-shakeing around David Robinson or seeming to be 5 places at once blocking shots is far and away more palatable than Shaq steamrolling to the hoop for another 2.

It may have been only 2 or 3 years, but those were two or three years of brilliance that Shaq will never have. Better to have a moment of brilliance, than a lifetime of really good.

Hakeem defined the beauty of his sport that was only surpassed in the last 20 years by Michael Jordan. Shaq rules over the fall of the golden age of the NBA.

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It depends on what you compare. Skillwise? Hakeem by far. Dominance? Shaq by a good margin.

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"See they pick and pick and pick. Man they picked me to death."
-Steve Francis on the Utah Jazz

 

Thats an excellent point. I always tell people that too. If Hakeem had someone like Drexler or even Quitten on his team he would have atleast 2-3 more championships.


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I will look back on Shaq and Hakeem as being equally great, each for different reasons. But lets wait until Shaq leads the league in all-time blocks before we say that the defensive gap between the two players is not that large.

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Protrolls.com!

RITQAIOCLHTPFOTFWBPTD

 

Sounds to me like TheFreak is buying into Stern's publicity machine.

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When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.-
Albert Einstein

 

Let's do this with algebra.

Let S = Shaq.
Let L = Lakers lineup of Kobe, Fisher, Fox, and Grant/Horry.
Let H = Hakeem in his prime.
Let h = Hakeem today.
Let R = Rockets lineup of Maxwell, Thorpe, Horry, and Smith/Cassell.

Let's grant Freak's premise that the current Lakers, with some slight modifications, take at least two more championships. Let's also grant that the '94 Rockets couldn't have won more than the one championship they got. From this, we can basically grant the equation

(S+L)>(H+R).

But now let's shuffle the lineups. Would you prefer a team of Shaq, Maxwell, Thorpe, Horry, and Smith/Cassell, to a team of Hakeem (in his prime), Kobe, Fox, Fisher, and Grant/Horry? I'd say without question that

(S+R)<(H+L).

I'd even say that (S+R)<(h+L) -- but let's set that question aside for the moment.

Now, if you try playing off the two equations against each other, you'll find that you can deduce only one thing about the relative values of the variables in these equations: L>R. You can't deduce S>H.

The same problem muddles the significance of Shaq's better stats. How many points, boards, and assists would Hakeem and Shaq have posted, respectively, if the lineups had been S+R and H+L?

Imagine that Shaq '01 and Hakeem '94 were rival candidates for a season MVP award. The accepted standard for awarding MVP is: Which player made the biggest difference to his team? From the data before us, we can't answer that question.



[This message has been edited by Will (edited June 17, 2001).]

 

I agree with LilStevie, skill can play a big part in an argument as to who was better. Who would you give the ball to on the last possession of a game down by two? O'Neal, who has to catch the ball three feet from the rim and pray he isn't fouled and that he gets away with enough offensive fouls to get a dunk? Or Olajuwon, who could step out to get the ball anywhere inside the three-point line and either shoot or take the ball off the dribble and shoot, pass, or draw a foul and nail free throws at a rate of 75%?

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If all those other NBA players were still in their prime like Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Shaq would still put up huge numbers. Shaq is just to big and strong for all of them. He would just back into them and dunk on them like he always does, or maybe shoot a jumphook. I can't stand when people say Shaq is only good because he plays with centers past their prime. THat is BS. Do you think a 250 lb D.Rob, a 255 Hakeem, a 255 Ewing, or a 6 foot ten 261 1b Mourning would be able to stop a 7'2 Shaquille Oneal. Shaq would still dominate them! Same as he does now. Shaq has always dominated even when the centers were in their prime look at these stacksREBOUNDS PER GAME
YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
92-93 ORL 81 81 37.9 .562 .000 .592 4.20 9.60 13.90 1.9 .74 3.53 3.79 4.00 23.4
93-94 ORL 81 81 39.8 .599 .000 .554 4.70 8.50 13.20 2.4 .94 2.85 2.74 3.50 29.3
94-95 ORL 79 79 37.0 .583 .000 .533 4.20 7.30 11.40 2.7 .92 2.43 2.58 3.30 29.3
95-96 ORL 54 52 36.0 .573 .500 .487 3.40 7.70 11.00 2.9 .63 2.13 2.87 3.60 26.6
96-97 LAL 51 51 38.1 .557 .000 .484 3.80 8.70 12.50 3.1 .90 2.88 2.86 3.50 26.2
97-98 LAL 60 57 36.3 .584 .000 .527 3.50 7.90 11.40 2.4 .65 2.40 2.92 3.20 28.3
98-99 LAL 49 49 34.8 .576 .000 .540 3.80 6.90 10.70 2.3 .73 1.67 2.49 3.20 26.3
99-00 LAL 79 79 40.0 .574 .000 .524 4.30 9.40 13.60 3.8 .46 3.03 2.82 3.20 29.7
00-01 LAL 74 74 39.5 .572 .000 .513 3.90 8.80 12.70 3.7 .64 2.76 2.95 3.50 28.7
Career 608 603 37.9 .577 .053 .531 4.00 8.40 12.40 2.8 .74 2.70 2.91 3.40 27.7
Playoff 105 105 40.1 .566 .000 .503 4.80 7.90 12.70 3.2 .65 2.20 3.08 3.50 28.2
All-Star 6 6 24.7 .494 .000 .477 3.30 4.50 7.80 1.0 .83 1.83 1.67 2.30 17.2

By looking at those stats its easy to tell that Shaq has always dominated, no matter the opposition.

Even though I think Hakeem is great and all better than Wilt and Russell. You guys act like he killed Shaq in the Playoffs. First of all Shaq still averaged about 28 points per game, and second Shaq wasn't even in his prime! How old was Shaq any way 24 or 25. Shaq was still just a young gun in the NBA, he wasn't even close to as skilled as he is now. So don't act like Hakeem beat Shaq when Shaq was at his best.

I think Shaq would dominate no matter what opposition was against him. To say that Ewing, Mourning, or Hakeem would make Shaq suck is ridiculous. Look what shaq did to Mutumbo.

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"Even though I think Hakeem is great and all better than Wilt and Russell. You guys act like he killed Shaq in the Playoffs. First of all Shaq still averaged about 28 points per game, and second Shaq wasn't even in his prime! "

-His #'s from the 95 season are actually better than what he did this year or last year. He was in MUCH better shape back then. And Hakeem averaged 33 points per game. Obviously Hakeem outplayed him because Shaq's Magic were SWEPT. Hakeem did the little things and Shaq didn't. Shaq has himself admitted that Hakeem "dusted his butt and dominated"


"Shaq was still just a young gun in the NBA, he wasn't even close to as skilled as he is now. "

-I'm sorry but elbowing people in the faces to clear them out, then dunking, does not qualify as a "skill" If half of O'Neal's ridiculous offensive fouls were called, he'd foul out in the 1st quarter of every NBA game. To call the man "Skilled" is a huge stretch. He can't even hit a FREE THROW, one of the most basic, fundamental parts of basketball.

"Look what shaq did to Mutumbo. "

-Look at what Hakeem did against a 29 year old MVP named David Robinson and then what Shaq did against a 35 year old, past his prime, David Robinson.

"To say that Ewing, Mourning, or Hakeem would make Shaq suck is ridiculous"

-It's funny how Shaq wasn't able to get over on Hakeem or DRob till they were 35 years old. Even DRob played Shaq to a standstill just 2 years ago. Now that DRob is 35, Shaq was finally able to have success against him.

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Get Cato out of there...

 

FIne then shaq didn't weigh as much as he does now

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Hakeem Olajuwon was better than Shaquille O'Neal.

I disagree, its not that hard.

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"I always thought it was something that went around my house"
- World B. Free on Defence

 

Did anyone watch the Sports Reporters Sunday morning on ESPN? They were asking the same question (is Shaq the best big man ever) and Dream was never mentioned. Basically he was compared against Wilt, Russell, Kareem and of all people the other center mentioned was Walton.
Now take it any ways you want (either as disrespect or media hype) but the national media already puts Shaq above Dream.

 

Shaq can not win without Kobe. He's proven that. Hakeem won without Kobe. He's proven that. Hakeem overall was a more dominant player in his prime than Shaq. Offensively, no one dominates his opposition to the degree Shaq has. No one since Wilt/Jordan anyway.

Overall at this point in their careers, I think Hakeem was the better of the two.

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"I had mine chewed off by a boss one time." -- Behad leaves us wondering if he gets hazard pay...

 

To say this is unbiased discussion would not be short of rediculous. Just think about the discussion is who is better, Shaq or the Dream on the Rocket Disscussion board. I mean can anyone really make an biased statement? I agree that from 93 to 95 there was no one better he just was too quick for anyone, but to say that the dream had a lesser cast is simply unacceptable. 2 great perimeter shooters in Mad Max and The jet. Otis thorp made it alot easier for the dream on the Boards because you know that you could depend on a double-double from Thorpe every night. A Robert Horry who was about 30 pds lighter, quicker, and user to come down th Lane and dunk on anyone with force when you happened to double team the dream. A young Cassell who could have started anywhere else at the team. When Herrera played good that was the difference between you guys winning and dominating.

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"Shaq can not win without Kobe. He's proven that."
DOD- I don't necessarily believe that. He carried the Magic to th Finals as a very young player. Shaq is just entering his prime (yeah his weight may end his prime years prematurely) but he is still just 29. Shaq is lucky to have Kobe, just like Duncan is lucky to have David.
Shaq is as dominant now as Dream was in his prime. Shaq is better offensively and Dream is better defensively. You can say Dream had better foot work and more offensive moves, but Shaq is unstoppable. You can say Shaq has less skills but if you have the ability to dunk or take every shot from point blank range you would be a fool not to.
It also helps that Shaq is so charismatic. The press loves him which further helps to boost his stock in casual NBA fans eyes.
It's just my $.02 but Shaq is already remembered as one of the NBAs all-time greats, as a result of his size, ability and personality,