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Is Harden the 'Problem?' If not, what is???

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by IzakDavid13, Jan 5, 2016.

  1. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    I don't think that's right.

    That was right... and the program suffered... so they went to actually coaching. All reports, articles, stories coming out of the experience seemed to confirm that there was actual coaching that went on and that Harden took to it, especially with Thibs.
     
  2. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    The coaches are there of course but obviously in a extremely limited amount of time in a less stressful environment. It's alot easier to listen and take in what's being said when there isn't much negativity going on and everything around you in positive. That's not what the NBA is about. The circumstances in the olympic experiences do not come close to what really goes on over here.
     
  3. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Obviously its different. Harden also can't "loaf around" in that environment, playing alongside other stars and superstars.

    But my point I think remains.

    Put him in a situation where he for whatever reasons is held accountable to a coaching staff in a way he frankly hasn't been here ever, and I think he will respond well to that. Even the best of the best require the right coaching relationship to make it work.

    And the further point that the coaching overall has been bad here, regardless of Harden, also remains true.
     
  4. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    I mean I wish that could happen without having a so called "elite" coach. It shouldn't be that way. A player who wants to be great in all aspects should do so regardless of the coaching staff. They have just as much responsibility in holding themselves accountable as a coaching staff does if not more. We just haven't seen much of that here. Ultimately, it comes down to the actual player regardless of what a coach tries to instill. If we do somehow get Thibs here next year, I won't be holding my breath for some dramatic change in the way Harden approaches the game unless he first acknowledges an adjustment or improvement he's willing to show.
     
  5. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Ultimately... obviously.

    I'm not even a huge Thibs guy. I'd be more interested in someone like Tyronne Lue... which I know sounds a bit crazy, but I think that's the type of coach and ex player that James would respond VERY well to. Has the respect of the best in the game. Apparently the Cavs defensive assistant.

    James was what everyone wants him to be just last year. And that wasn't his ceiling imo, again because of coaching. It was still largely schemeless. It was still a team that struggled at inbound plays, and struggled at defending inbound plays (as they had the year before famously in losing to the Blazers on the shot), etc, etc. Even with all that, James was engaged last eyar defensively.

    It's obvious that James could be more basketball and winning first than he is. More obsessed like Kobe, more focused like Lebron (who has plenty of outside the game stuff going on), more dedicated like Steph.

    But I don't think its a huge change required. And I do think an overhaul of coaching would go a long way in sparking that change.

    Again, consider at one point the Warriors were struggling to choose between Monta and Steph, and it wasn't clear they made the right choice. Steph got better as the coaching got better. He also worked on his game.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    I was just using thibs as an ex. but Tyronne Lue really? What has he done to get anyone's respect. he was nothing more than a mediocre player who bounced from team to team. if he's supposed to somehow be the savior to harden then he's in trouble. Like or not Harden has approached the time where what we are seeing is the player he's likely to be.
     
  7. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Out of curiosity, why is the Harden from this year, who is still a really good player btw, the player he's likely to be, and not the player from last year? Why do you imply any head coach will be a savior when Harden is already a really really really great player, even this year... in need of more focus, better defense and less iso-ball, but not a savior?

    Also, yes Tyronn Lue. He's well regarded around the league by players and executives as an up and coming head coaching prospect. I'm not sure you're up to date on the NBA.

    But there are other options, too...

    I get why some might see Harden becoming Francis and TMac esque... but we're still a FAR FAR way away from that.

    Yes, if he keeps progressing going down this path, then he's a "problem".
     
  8. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    There's plenty of discussions going around regarding his current year compared to last year. pretty well discussed around GARM. Came in comfortable with the success last year, didn't work to improve his game over the summer whether it was due to injury (which has been brought up) or whatever, obvious personal matters, still upset over the MVP race just to name a few

    And no I don't consider Tyrone as well regarded around the league. No thanks to him ever coming close to the coaching staff of this organization.
     
  9. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    ok. none of those reasons imply that this is who he is... they imply the opposite. my only comment was in response to you bringing up the idea of him needing a "savior" of sorts. We're talking about a tweak, mentally more than anything, not anything requiring a savior.

    That's ok that you don't consider him that. But the facts show he is highly regarded around the league.
     
  10. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    I guess savior was probably the wrong word to use but imo it's more than a tweak for harden if he wants to be the best player on a team that wins a title.

    As for Lue there aren't any facts that show that. it's merely a belief. he's been on two different teams in 2 years. and being on clev now where they hired a euro coach with no nba experience. There's plenty of guys around the league that people want to say are "highly regarded" but it doesn't necessarily mean they're wanted at the same level.
     
  11. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    I think it's a tweak, but respect those that think its more than a tweak. It's certainly hard to tell.

    As for Lue... yeah, he might not be a great assistant or potential head coach.. but he IS respected around the league. I personally think he has it in him, and as importantly because he is, factually, respected around the league and respected by Lebron, he'd also be relatively immediately respected by Harden.
     
  12. thiefery

    thiefery Member

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    They are all to be blamed. If this trend continues (I'm already giving in), it makes it much easier to go ahead and hit reset.

    Harden is untouchable. Dwight walks, TJ walks or gets traded (along with Lawson) resign DMO..

    Bring in JVG, target players who they can plug in around harden who are D oriented.

    ???????

    PROFIT
     
  13. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    What a great OP, Izak. I wish I'd written it. For those who swarmed in here to disagree with you just to slam Harden (seems like the trendy thing to do), they need to remember just how long a wait we had before making it to the WC Finals. 17 years? Seemed like a century, and Harden carried this team on his back all season, the same cat that so many here are ready to trade. Clearly, he had some distractions during the off-season that have carried over into this season, but he's still the same 26 year old 2 guard. As you point out in your excellent column (maybe Clutch could use you for the Front Page!), a lot of the problems we're having can be traced to coaching and our "system." System being in quotes because, like many of us, I'm trying to figure out just what that system is. Your OP is far from a mere defense of James and his play thus far. It points out many of the problems we're having and suggestions about what the Rocks should do about it. Yes, it's all been said here and there, more than once (sometimes dozens of times!), but you did an excellent job, in my humble opinion, of putting a hell of a lot of it together in one OP.

    If some of you haven't bothered to read the OP because, "It's too long!!" then you are making a mistake. Thanks, OP!
     
    #53 Deckard, Jan 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
    1 person likes this.
  14. DaDakota

    DaDakota Contributing Member

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    And a lot of his bad passes that result in turnovers are credited to other player, incorrectly.

    So, yes, he is not a great passer.

    And again, he is trying to do too much on offense and not enough on defense.

    DD
     
  15. ksny15

    ksny15 Member

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    Great post!!

    He isn't even close to being the main problem with the team. One person isn't to blame when the entire team decides to randomly show up on different days. It doesn't look like that is changing at all either. Going to be a very long 2nd half of the season hopefully James starts to really ball out to at least make it enjoyable.
     
  16. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    I was under the assumption that turnovers are credited to the passer in all cases where the receiver never has full possession. Is that wrong?
     
  17. FTW Rockets FTW

    FTW Rockets FTW Contributing Member

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    1. Coaching / Harden
    2. Harden / Coaching
     
  18. DaDakota

    DaDakota Contributing Member

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    Yep, sometimes it is attributed to the guy catching or not catching the pass it is discretionary to the score keeper.

    DD
     
  19. Blurr#7

    Blurr#7 Contributing Member

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    In the NBA the player that touched the ball last is attributed the turnover. I've never heard it was at the discretion of the score keeper. I'd like to see the official rule tho.
     
  20. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    His play with the Olympic team does give more hope, but it's definitely an extreme circumstance. It's a much shorter period of time vs an NBA season, he's playing with the best NBA players, and he's representing the country and not just a city (a non-LA city). Harden's defense wasn't solid all last season.

    Rockets failure obviously isn't 100% on Harden, but he's most of the problem. Teams follow their best player.. and when Harden's effort isn't there, his teammates' probably won't be either. Have you ever seen Harden play hard while most his teammates didn't? I don't recall ever seeing that. The coaching is subpar overall, but I highly doubt JB isn't telling him (or, at least, insinuating) to play harder. Heck, he's already done it through the media several times.

    Wow, never knew that.
    _______

    Regarding the looong OP, great research. But what's the shortened version?

    Harden's not getting FTs has effected wins? His FTA has dropped monthly, but our record has risen (somewhat) monthly.

    OCT - 0-2
    NOV - 7-9
    DEC - 9-7
    JAN - 1-1

    Harden mainly just needs to play harder. He shot 5 FTs on Christmas.

    I will say Harden's (maybe) not getting calls does effect his TOs. If he drives, gets fouled with no call, it's a TO if the team loses possession.
     
    #60 Houstunna, Jan 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
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