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Is Harden a top 5 player in the league?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by swyyyguy, Jul 26, 2016.

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Is Harden a top 5 player in the league?

  1. Yes

    75.0%
  2. No

    25.0%
  1. YaoMing#1

    YaoMing#1 Member

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    I love harden but I get what your saying. Westbrook is putting up numbers we've never seen before and his team is hanging in there winning games.

    Right now if the season ended today I would say yes Russ is prob the MVP.

    But in 60+ games when the season is winding down I expect the rockets to have about 10 more wins than okc maybe more.

    The thunder have won at least 5 games they should have lost, at some point that is going to even out. I still think okc has a very strong chance of not making the playoffs. I mean for context the rockets didnt score a point for 6 min to end the game and the thunder still only won by 2. There just not that good.

    It's hard not to give it to Lebron and he still might get it because well he's the best player in the game hands down and should win it every year if you ask me.

    KD is having a remarkable season and in any other year he would be the front runner for MVP. But he's going against a guys not only doing more for there teams than he is but also putting up better raw numbers.

    But I still say only Lebron and harden impact a game at every level and harden is even better from deep. These guys get it down low mid range uptop and can pass better than any players in the game. To me they are the hardest game plans in the entire league.

    We have a truly special player playing in houston, we should enjoy it guys. This is much different than tmac.
     
  2. BigDog63

    BigDog63 Member

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    My answer before would have been 'No'. Wasn't seeming to make players around him better, and not playing defense. Hard to be top five if the answer to those two things is 'No.' But this system seems to suit him very well, you can't look at the team, or his assists, and say he isn't making those around him better, and his defense seems to have improved. Clearly one of the contenders for MVP: Harden, Westbrook, James, and maybe Anthony Davis would seem to be the contenders so far this year. Given team records, Davis would be out...so Harden is somewhere in top 3?
     
  3. tmacfor35

    tmacfor35 Contributing Member

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    Has been pre and post kardashian.

    Current Kardashian we had Monte Ellis playing for us.

    Good to have him back.
     
  4. oogie boogie

    oogie boogie Member

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    Not until he has a TO ratio higher than 3.0.

    The undeniables.

    Lebron James- Best all around player in the league. If you need him to score efficiently he can. Not more efficient than Harden, but he can put up 25+ on great efficiency if need be. He's a very solid rebounder for his position. He's a match up nightmare with quickness, speed, athleticism, and strength all rolled up in one body. Although he has his lapses he is still one of the best defenders in the league.

    Kevin Durant- A near 7 footer with an icy jump shot and the ability to run the fast break. Very athletic forward who is possibly the best scorer in the league. Much better scorer than Curry and he isn't a liability defensively. He can rebound the ball well for his position. He is almost impossible to guard.
    .
    Stephen Curry- Possibly the greatest 3 point shooter of all time with deadly handles. Although he has relinquished most point guard duties to Green he still has his play making skills. He is a supreme scorer who can shoot from anywhere on the court and will take advantage of most matchups. He is one of the best scorers of all time- and yes a better scorer than our Harden even if you think it's by a hair. His flaws are that he is also turn over prone and not elite defensively, but can still manage his own at that end of the court.

    The possibles.

    Chris Paul- At 31 years old CP3 has seemingly found a way to preserve his game. He is the ultimate playmaker and has one of the best feels of the game that we've seen. At 31 minutes per game he is averaging 17.5 points and 8.5 assists per game, but he has been the most efficient he's ever been. He's not a better scorer than Harden, and Harden is a bit more efficient, but CP3 is still one of the best offensive guards in the game simply because his knack of creating shots for others and himself. He nearly has a 3.75 TO ratio, and is averaging nearly 3 steals a game. He is the best defensive player at his position at one of the hardest positions to guard. He can check Westbrook, Curry, and Kyrie all in one week and you would feel confident about it. Not just that. He's become one of the best defenders in the game in general. It may be up to preference between Harden and CP3, but Paul certainly has a case on why he is better.

    Anthony Davis- Near 7 foot hybrid forward-center and who score with the best of them. He changes your idea of a big man. Out of everyone listed he easily has the worst team mates. If we go off simple logic we could deduce his numbers would look much better with better team mates. Kevin Durant for example looks much better this season compared to his last. Still, Davis is averaging the most points in the league with a 60 true shooting percentage with terrible team mates. He averaged 11 rebounds and near 3 blocks a game. Despite not having a high amount of assists he is still not turn over prone. In fact he averages more blocks than turn overs and he also averages a healthy 2 steals per game. He is easily one of the most dynamic players in the game. He has two flaws in his game though. He shoots 2 threes per game when the numbers show he isn't a very good 3 point shooter. He is a very bad 3 point shooter, and those 3s are wasted possessions. The second flaw is that he has been deemed injury prone.

    Kawhi Leonard- The numbers say he's regressed defensively, but let's be honest. He's playing a large amount of minutes with Pau Gasol and Tony Parker who are clearly too old to be playing solid defense. Kawhi still has the claim to being the best defensive player in the league despite what any numbers without context say. Having the claim to being the best defensive player in the league should be held to the same standard of being the best offensive player in the league. It's what gave Curry and Durant nods as top 3 players in the league. There still seems to be a bit speculation on to whether he can manage having his own team though which is strange. The man is averaging 25 points per game on a true shooting percentage of 60%. He is a very capable scorer. He may go for 40 every once in 15 games, but he is very consistent in his numbers. He's scored less than 20 only 3 times this season. His shooting line is 46/38/92 which is very solid. He isn't a great rebounder for his position, but he makes up for it by being able to steal the ball 2 times a game and not turn the ball over much. A very efficient, consistent scorer who can create his own shot (because he can and he does) who also has the claim to being the best defender in the league has a claim to being a top 5 player.

    James Harden- He's averaging a double-double. Near 30 points and 12 assists. Other than his OKC days this may be the most efficient we ever see Harden play which is a bit of a bummer. Well, if he made more of his free throws he'd be more efficient, but this offense is geared for Harden and possibly the best offensive players he'll get. There's no guarantee he'll be playing next to a Gordon Hayward who would fit great with him at the 3 or he'll play next to John Wall who can finally take the point guard duties away from Harden. Harden will always be his worse enemy because only he can stop himself. Harden is one of the best efficient scorers in the league and also one of the best creators in the league. The incredible part is that he's not even top 5 in usage. He is a player with very few flaws, but his one glaring flaw is a very troublesome one. He simply has way too many turnovers to be taken seriously as a top 5 player. It's a problem that I don't believe he can fix. I thought his problem last season couldn't get worse, but he is now nearly averaging 6 turnovers a game. No one can just give a blind eye to that. It's like shooting six 3s a game but when you know you're a career 29% three point shooter. Imagine if Corey Brewer shot six 3s a games. The best way to fix the problem is for Harden to finally play next to a legitimate play maker that meshes with Harden. Still, it's not a guarantee it would fix his TO ratio since I'm starting to believe he would cough up the ball no matter what.

    The don't even bothers


    Wings: Paul George, Demar Derozan, Jimmy Butler
    - While these guys are all having good seasons (especially #21 and #10) they simply don't bring enough to be a top 5 player. Derozan is the king of the mid range jumper and has become a great scorer in his own right, but he does not have elite efficiency like the undeniables or possibles. Butler on the other hand is efficient and is putting up very respectable scoring numbers. He is having career best nearly everywhere and has truly shaped up into a fantastic all around wing who can defend, rebound, scorer and even facilitate a little. It's hard not to put him on the possibles honestly. He truly is a great basketball player and without a doubt top 10 today. Paul George is worse than Jimmy today. Nothing else I can say. Remember that PG13 or Harden thread? Good times.

    Guards: Russell Westbrook, Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker, John Wall, Kyle Lowry- That's a lot of guards. It's just easier to say Harden is better than them. Kemba has been a nice surprise again this season. Kyrie is playing well following his 2016 playoffs. Lowry is consistent as ever. John Wall seems to have regressed a little, but seriously his team mates aren't worthy and I'm guessing Wall isn't having fun in DC anymore. Russ is Russ. High usage player who doesn't make his team mates better. Any other guard not mentioned was done so on purpose cause I'm petty.

    Bigs: Blake Griffin, Draymond Green, Karl Anthony-Towns, Demarcus Cousins- Well, Blake being in this section kind of surprises me. He's been very quiet this season, and for good reason. He's very capable of being a top 10 or even 5 player. Hes averaging 21-9-4 and is a match up problem. Not an elite defensive player like you would hope, and definitely not an elite efficient scoring machine. 21 points on average efficiency with CP3 feeding you? I feel like if he wants a real claim to top 5 he has to up his efficiency and score more. KAT is still a young player with a bunch of upside, but not entirely there yet. Green is a great defensive player that truly benefits offensively because of his team mates. Barnes went from shooting nearly 40% from 3 to not even 30% from 3. Green isn't an impressive play maker, but he does have the ability to pass the ball to Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, or Klay Thompson who are all great shooters so I guess that's impressive? Cousins. Honestly, he could be in the possibles. He probably could be, but I can't reasonably say he's better than Harden, CP3, Davis or Kawhi. Plus his usage sort of inflates his numbers. Boogie has always been a tough player to judge.
     
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  5. tbw914

    tbw914 Member

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    na dog. Kawhi has got to be in there now. battle for the 5th comes down to harden, russ and davis. take your pick
     
  6. Harden's beard

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    the only thing Kawhi has going for him is his team record (a Spurs player. surprised?), there is nothing impressive about his individual numbers or performances. Honestly, Jimmy Butler is having a better season than him. I would easily pick AD & Harden over him, Kawhi is a borderline top 10 player IMO.
     
  7. oogie boogie

    oogie boogie Member

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    Well, I have him anywhere from 4 to 7. It's hard to say he is when you have to exclude 2 of Paul, Davis or Harden. All of three who are better than Russ.

    This is a joke of a post, right? I appreciate that you fought vigorously for Harden's honor all off-season when ClutchFans went full terrible, but Kawhi is a legitimate player. Not only is he likely the best defender in the league but he is a very respectable scorer as well. No one is saying he's the best at scoring, but he is consistent and efficient. 25 a game, decent rebounder, and impeccable defense. His team does not change how good he is. Each season he has improved. He is definitely top 10. You can say he's right at number 10, but to say borderline is a bit disrespectful. The man is a beast.
     
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  8. Harden's beard

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    Look, the fact of the matter is Kawhi's never led his team beyond the 2nd round in the playoffs while being the no.1 option. He's still young so has a room to improve, but his most recent playoff performance was meh to say the least, and he was the MVP runner-up that year. I think his offense is respectably good but not super elite like Curry, Durant or Harden. And while his defense is supposed to be all-time great, I'm not so sure about that. Is he a really better defender than, say, Draymond Green? Not really, if you factor in the ability to help off of your man and play team defense. Kahwi can absolutely lock his man down one-on-one, but his team defense seems pretty average at times. Coincidentally, Draymond's DRPM is 3.95 (the best in the league) while Kawhi is at 81st with 0.93.

    Overall, Kawhi is a very good two-way player but just like Paul George, his impact on the game is just not that great. I'd rather have an explosive offensive player with average or slightly below average D, I think those types of players are much more valuable in today's game. Look at top 5 offensive teams and compare their record to top 5 defensive teams if you don't know what I'm talking about.
     
    #468 Harden's beard, Nov 29, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  9. FoOLiSh_AzN

    FoOLiSh_AzN Member

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    Did you just say Steph Curry is lazy..? LOL smh
     
  10. tbw914

    tbw914 Member

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    back to back defensive player of the year? shooting
    lol lets just forget about that finals MVP where he scored 29 and then had back to back 20 and 10 games. while guarding lebron at the peak of his career. and they won in 5 games
     
  11. Harden's beard

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    I'm talking about this year.

    lol, having few good games doesn't make you the main go-to-guy. 17.8 ppg 6.4 rpg 2.0 apg is possibly the worst stat line of any Finals MVP. It was a collective effort involving Parker, Duncan & Manu, they just had to give it to one guy and chose a cog in the machine that is Kawhi.
     
    #471 Harden's beard, Nov 29, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  12. FoOLiSh_AzN

    FoOLiSh_AzN Member

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    Curry does have great teammates. Offense caters to Curry's strength..don't all teams do that? LOL Teams cater and run the offense through their main guy. The Rockets have been catering to Harden's ISO ball for years. Seeing how much Harden love to hold and dribble to ball, D'antoni officially named Harden point guard of the team. Don't tell me that is not catering to Harden's strength..EVERY TEAM DOES IT!
     
  13. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    I just want to say, that's not a rational expectation for James Harden.

    On the list, only Chris Paul has an asst/to ratio of greater than 3 to 1 and Chris Paul is a traditional pure PG.

    Lebron James a/to ratio is 2.67. The second best player on that team is Irving, 3rd is Kevin Love, and the next best offensive starter is 3pt man JR Smith. Before that he had Bosh and Wade. More importantly, Lebron James is a historic exception. He is one of the best to ever play the game, but that doesn't make him the most valuable player to his team this season.

    Scoring a huge amount of points by attacking the basket - i.e. 10 FTA's per game Harden averages - will result in turnovers that could otherwise be avoided. In fact, Morey mentioned this early in Harden's Rockets career - some TO's are acceptable, particularly the ones that are the result of relentlessly attacking the basket. No one does this more than Harden. No one in the league can avoid turning it over 3-4 times if they're playing with the mindset of attacking the basket relentlessly like Harden does. It's exactly for that reason you will not find those players in a list of the players with the best a/to ratios. You can see in the top 20 there are almost no big scorers, and in the top 40-50 there are no people racking up as many FTA's as Harden.

    Right now Harden is putting up 2.2 a/to ratio while being FAAAAAAAAAR and away the team's #1 scoring option. You have to account for that as well. Most James Harden buckets are not going to be assisted, and obviously he can't assist himself.

    Last thing to take into consideration is MDA's offensive system is known to thrive on players learning to make instinctive plays. We are only 15 games into MDA's offense. Harden probably IS going to bring his to's down as he essentially becomes Neo in this offense, and the other players also perfect their timing and execution. At some point, these guys will know where the others are without looking, that's a big part of MDA's offense.

    If Harden were putting up anything near a 3 to 1 a/to ratio right now, it would have to be considered a top 5 season of any individual all time. 30 points, 12.5 assists/4.2 TO's, 7.5 rebounds, 10 FTA's. Jesus. He is not that good, no one is right now, and that's not what it takes to be the MVP imo.
     
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  14. ricardo1979

    ricardo1979 Member

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    Harden is better then curry. Not sure how that is even a question anymore. Better playmaker, scorer, rebounder and offensive awareness. He is even a better defender.
     
  15. oogie boogie

    oogie boogie Member

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    @Mathloom Yes, 3.0 was a bit unfair, but.

    Under 0.8 turnovers on drive
    Over 0.8 turnovers on drive
    Under 3.0 turnovers a game
    Over 3.0 turnovers per game
    Under 2.0 TO ratio

    Over 2.0 TO ratio

    Essentially, blue means good and red means bad

    1. Isaiah Thomas | 14 drives a game | 0.4 turnovers | 2.5 topg | 2.66 to ratio
    2. Russell Westbrook | 13 drives a game | 1.1 turnovers | 5.5 topg | 2.05 to ratio
    3. Goran Dragic | 13 drives a game | 1.1 turnovers | 2.9 topg | 2.28 to ratio
    4. James Harden | 12.5 Drives a game | 1.1 turnovers | 5.7 topg | 2.14 to ratio
    5. Dennis Schroder | 11.2 drives a game | 0.7 turnovers | 3.2 topg | 1.72 to ratio
    6. DeMar Derozan | 11.2 drives a game | 0.5 turnovers | 2.6 topg | 1.58 topg
    7. John Wall | 11.1 drives a game | 0.9 turn overs | 4.7 topg | 1.89 to ratio
    8. Damian Lillard | 10.7 drives a game | 0.4 turnovers | 3.1 topg | 1.71 to ratio
    9. Eric Bledsoe | 10.7 drives a game | 0.9 turnovers | 3.2 topg | 1.69 to ratio
    10. Dion Waiters | 10.6 drives a game | 0.5 turnovers | 2.2 topg | 1.82 to ratio

    First thing you notice is that Harden is better than most of these guys at TO ratio, so it's actually not that bad. Mainly because his assists numbers have risen like crazy (Harden needs to thank Gordon, Anderson, Capela and Ariza for that.) Still, he drives the 4th most out of all players and 1.1 of his 5.7 turnovers are from drives. That means that 4.6 of his turnovers come from something else. You can't say it's because he's constantly attacking the rim. It comes from many reasons. Bad passes, mishandling the ball while dribbling or even one of his team mates fumbling a pass. One of those isn't his fault, but he can certainly cut them down. You can't say he's averaging nearly 6 turnovers a game because he drives in too much. John Wall drives in a lot and he's 3rd at 4.7 turnovers a game. Mind you Harden averaged that much for 82 games and shattered the turnover record. 4th most turnovers per game out of those 10 would be Bledsoe and Schroder at 3.2 turnovers a game and they both drive in at least 10 times a game.
     
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  16. dharocks

    dharocks Contributing Member

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    I'm actually more concerned about the lack of turnovers forced, rather than Harden's turnovers committed. I mean, we have the 3rd best offense in the NBA and are middle of the pack in terms of Opponent Fast Break PPG.

    On the other hand, despite all of the defensive breakdowns last year the team still ranked #1 the NBA in steals, and this year we're at #23. Obviously you don't want guys gambling and reaching as much as last year, but I was hoping that we'd be forcing more live-ball turnovers and capitalizing in the open court.

    Hopefully Bev's return helps.
     
  17. OlajuwonFan81

    OlajuwonFan81 Member

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    If I were to have answered your question in the off season i'd say no, but now, I'd say he's arguably the best player in the league behind Lebron.
     
  18. zeeshan2

    zeeshan2 Member

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    Sort of off topic but Harden was almost traded to the Jazz but Harden said he wouldn't resign:

     
  19. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    Harden's a smart man.
     
  20. Tha_Dude

    Tha_Dude Contributing Member

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    I don't know wtf is up with Harden man. At times he looks like the best player in the NBA and then there are times when I wish we had Matt Maloney back at PG. He needs to sort out his lady friends, man.
     

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