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Iraq's liberation will be the biggest good thing to happen since 9/11.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by sinohero, Mar 24, 2003.

  1. sinohero

    sinohero Member

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    We fought our generation's Al Alamein in Afghanistan. Now we are gaining a foothold on another troubled continent and making the world a better place.

    The anti-war left's inability to concede defeat is astounding. Moore (and many like him) is still pissed that Bush won in 2000. If they keep this streak up, they would have no voice on the post-war development of Iraq or the future of the world war on terrorism.

    Come to think of it, it might be a good thing that the anti-war people discredit themselves. I surely lost patience over the dishonest bunch.

    Eyes on the Prize by Peggy Noonan

     
  2. sinohero

    sinohero Member

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    LIBERATION

    By JONATHAN FOREMAN
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    March 24, 2003 --
    EN ROUTE WITH V CORPS


    YOU may know the statistics: The sixth of the Iraqi population that lives in exile, the 100,000-plus disappeared persons of the Kurdish "anfal."

    You may have read the books and articles describing the brutal oppression of Shiite, Kurdish, Turkmen and Marsh Arab minorities - who together make up a majority of the Iraqi population.

    You may be familiar with the regime's cruel efficiency when it comes to rooting out and destroying all opposition.

    But nothing could bring home the rightness of this campaign in Iraq - and the deluded wrongness of the peace movement - like the sight that greeted the 54th Engineer Battalion (and this writer) yesterday morning in a string of small towns on Route 8 near the city of Nasiriyah in southern Iraq.

    In village after dusty village, the people - most presumably Shiites - rushed out to greet the troops. They lined the highway: portly older men, teenage boys, little girls in brightly colored pajamas, waving, giving the thumbs-up sign and smiling.

    Bravo Company's Sgt. Roy Lee Brown III (32) of Hackensack, N.J., said, "This gives me a real good feeling. It's the first time I've ever been deployed that I've seen people so happy that we're here." (Bravo Company just returned from a tour of duty in Kosovo.)

    Sitting next to him on the M113 APC, Lt. Kevin Hallstrom ,25, of Albuquerqe, N.M., observed: "They look so beat down, the people here."

    But they also looked elated.

    And I never felt more proud of being an American or of America's armed forces.

    Yes, some of the kids wanted MREs, or cigarettes or p*rnography. The 54th was not the first unit to travel along this road (you can see that by the empty water bottles and empty MRE packets along the highway.) And it doesn't take long for Third World children to become corrupted by little gifts.

    But it was clear from the way we were greeted - with cheers rather than stones - that these people saw the approaching army as a force of liberation, not oppression, pace all those who insist that the campaign is a great crime.

    One man actually approached the APC and shouted, "Bush good, Saddam bad!"

    His enthusiasm wasn't that surprising, given that close to Route 8 are some of the famous marshes that the Saddam regime drained, impoverishing the inhabitants and destroying a way of life that goes back almost to the days of ancient Sumer. (Indeed, Ur of the Chaldees, birthplace of the prophet Abraham, is not far from here.) The 54th recently traveled through one of these former marshes, now a desolate brown flatland, a dry crust covering damp earth.

    During the run-up to the war, the peace movement never engaged with Iraqi exiles from here in the south or from Kurdistan in the north (where a fierce U.S.-backed uprising is again under way). Nor did it talk with any seriousness or conviction about political conditions in Saddam's Iraq, preferring instead to focus on the supposedly evil motivation of the Bush administration, the criminal "carpet bombing" that would accompany any invasion, or past mistakes in U.S. foreign policy.

    The "war for oil" argument has been exploded ad nauseam, and the French and Germans have made it all too clear what a foreign policy based on cynical financial interest really looks like.

    There has been no "carpet bombing," and isn't likely to be any. If anything, the U.S. Air Force will be even more discriminate in its choice of targets than it was in Desert Storm - arguably a campaign in which humanitarian considerations played a larger part than in any major war in all of human history.

    (As I write on the roof of my stopped APC, I can see an allied aircraft attacking targets in the town of Samaweh - and it certainly doesn't look anything like "carpet bombing.")

    Yes, America has indeed made terrible mistakes in the past, including the support provided to vicious Latin American tyrannies like the Argentine junta (though its record of torture and murder is dwarfed by that of the Saddam regime). But the liberation of Iraq is a chance to make belated good on those mistakes and more.

    And if the government had listened to the naysayers and not come here and liberated these people, that would have been a real crime.
     
  3. sinohero

    sinohero Member

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    Iraqis recount savagery of Saddam
    By FRED BROWN, brownf@knews.com
    March 23, 2003

    "You never say 'no' in Iraq," said Kadhim al-Dhalimi. "To say 'no' means you die. That's why I'm here. I left before I had to say no."

    Kadhim was born in 1967 in al-Samawaha, a dissident Iraqi city of about 120,000 people, mostly Shia Muslims, about 100 miles south of Baghdad.

    One day Iraqi army officers burst into Kadhim's house, took one look at him and pronounced him old enough for duty in Saddam Hussein's army, which was then fighting a deadly, protracted war with Iran.

    "They gave me a new birthday that day," said Kadhim, who now lives in Knoxville. "They said I was born Jan. 1, 1961."

    That made Kadhim (pronounced Kath-Um) just old enough for military duty, and he soon found himself in the front lines near Iran.

    Kadhim dared not say no to the officers that day and neither did his family, but he escaped Iraq during the 1991 Gulf War by striking out walking in search of the American troops. He found them near the Saudi Arabian border and surrendered.

    Kadhim is about average size for an Iraqi male - between 120 and 130 pounds - with black hair and dark, piercing eyes. He said there were a lot of things other than forced military service to say no to in Iraq.

    For example, you might not want to give up half of your farm production to Saddam. You might not want to hand over half your wages to the government. You might not want to give up a prized family heirloom. You might not want to work in some government job.

    "You say no, you die. That simple," Kadhim said. "They say, 'OK, you free to go.' They take you outside and shoot you. Or just shoot you right there."

    Kadhim said whenever a rebel against the regime entered the prison system they were very unlikely to ever emerge from it. Or if they did emerge, they were likely to become victims of a delayed but cruel surprise.

    "If you get out of prison without a shot (from a needle), you lucky," Kadhim said. "They give you a shot, and you go home. You die one month, two months later from the shot they give. Just like that. You die."

    Kadhim's story is not unlike that of thousands of refugees who have fled Iraq to escape the ruthlessness of Saddam.

    In Kadhim's case, the motivation for escape was a close brush with death.

    During the war against Iran, Kadhim was wounded by shrapnel from an artillery shell that hit nearby. He still carries shrapnel in his back, head and legs, and his left elbow looks like an ugly zipper. Other random scars are evidence of his close call.

    "I couldn't breathe," he said. "I just lay down. I thought I had died. It was like I was dead. There was blood everywhere."

    He eventually regained his senses and began wrapping his wounds with already-bloody bandages he removed from dead or dying fellow soldiers. He knew he had to leave the battlefield or die there.

    Although frightened and worried about his family, he was able to find a friendly doctor to treat his wounds. Then the doctor told him to leave immediately out a back door.

    "He told me that if they find me, they kill me," Kadhim recalled.

    The doctor told Kadhim to go to a man who would help him return to his home state, but that would require a dangerous journey through several military checkpoints.

    As they approached each checkpoint, Kadhim would jump out before they arrived and make a wide detour around the danger point, meeting his benefactor well on the other side. That scene played itself out several times before he reached his home state.

    But even after returning to familiar territory, Kadhim said he did not dare contact his parents to let them know he was alive. If they became aware of his whereabouts and failed to notify authorities, they would be shot if found out. Kadhim said he did not dare to trust even his own parents.

    "I don't blame my family for not helping me," he said. "They kill them."

    In fact, his parents didn't even have to be aware of his existence to be endangered. Kahdim said if Saddam's death squads simply discovered that he was alive after fleeing from the front lines, they would go to his home in the night and kill all his family members.

    They same fate would befall any person who became aware of Kahdim's identity and past history and neglected to notify the authorities.

    As far as his family knew, Kadhim was dead.

    His two brothers were not so lucky. Abdullah was killed by the death squads, and then drug up and down the streets behind a truck. His other brother, who had escaped to Kuwait, was caught and sent to the Iranian front and killed there. Kadhim thinks his brother was shot by one of the Iraqi officers who patrol behind the troops to keep them in the front lines.

    Kadhim said his father died of a heart attack after learning of the death of his sons.

    Kadhim was only one of thousands of Iraqis who simply picked up and began walking toward Saudi Arabia in the 1991 Gulf War. They encountered American troops and were thankful.

    "I said, 'Thank you, God," Kadhim recalled. "Now I'm safe. I am alive. I feel like a human being.' "

    Kadhim was sent to Saudi Arabia, where Catholic Services aiding the refugees. After eight years of waiting, he came to America and wound up in Knoxville.

    Kadhim has a temporary job with the U.S. Postal Service in Oak Ridge. His boss, Eric Conklin, said Kadhim is a very hard worker but still has difficulty with English. Kadhim has a green card from the Immigration and Naturalization Service and is working on becoming an American citizen.

    "My choice was U.S.A.," Kadhim said. "I wanted to come here. I like hard work."

    Even though he has made it to America and is building his life here, he carries many dark memories. from the hands of the tyrant. He believes his mother is dead now. He has no photos of his family members, having left Iraq with nothing more than the clothes on his back. His sister lives in Kuwait, and he hopes she is safe there.

    Watching television of the war in Iraq late last week, Kadhim said the U.S. is g "good."

    "Maybe now the Iraqi people will have a new idea," he said. "They just want it to be over with Saddam. I think America will give my country freedom. If I were there, I would tell them that the Iraqi people are not their enemy. Some Arab countries are your enemy, but the Iraqi people aren't. I can't tell you which Arab countries. I would have big trouble."

    Kadhim's friend, Qasim (who asked that his last name not be used because of the possibility of retribution against his relatives in Baghdad), said the truth about Saddam, is a thousand times worse than anyone can imagine.

    "He has killed 2 million people," said Qasim, 33. "We lost 200,000 in the Gulf War. Right after the war, Saddham killed 500,000 in the south."

    Qasim, who managed to escape military service, but joined a revolutionary uprising against Saddam, was able to get to a refugeee camp in Saudi Arabia after the Gulf War. He toughed out eight years in the refugee camp before making it to the the United States.

    Qasim said he is glad American soldiers have returned to Iraq, he does not think they will be as welcome as they would have been in 1991 had they gone on to Baghdad.

    "We had a revolution then," he says. "Saddam would not have lasted two hours if the American troops had come."

    His entire family - mother, father, brothers and sisters - are still in Baghdad. He says he is gravely worried about them.

    "I'll be honest," he said. "In 1991 America could have kicked Saddam out. There are 24 million people in Iraq. He has about 8 to 12 million who support him. The rest do not. I believe those who support him will fight now."

    Qasim said Saddam committed vast atrocities after the Gulf War. Among other things, Saddam likes putting people in swimming pools filled with acid and watching them melt.

    "If you don't go into the army," Qasim said, "they round up your family and friends. They make your family buy the bullet. Then they shoot you in front of your family."

    But Qasim said because Saddam was left in power after the Gulf War, many Iraqis now distrust America.

    Kadhim and Qasim fear what might happen in the aftermath of Saddam's removal They are afraid old tribal hatreds and old grudges will create an atmosphere of bloody revenge.

    "You kill my family or rape my sister. "Now I must kill you," Kadhim said. "It is the way."

    Qasim said there is now a saying in Iraq: "America shows you gold, but sells you mud."

    As he watches the newest footage of bombs and missiles falling on Baghdad, Kadhim said, "I am sad and happy. Many will die. But maybe they get freedom."

    http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/iraq_conflict/article/0,1406,KNS_9217_1832734,00.html
     
  4. Manny Ramirez

    Manny Ramirez The Music Man

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    wow, there for a second I thought that they were people commenting on sinohero's original article, and then I realized it is him just posting more and more articles...geez, how about the cliff notes version, hmm?
     
  5. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Contributing Member

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    9/11 was a good thing???:eek:

    Might want to reword your title there chief.
     
  6. Mulder

    Mulder Contributing Member

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    Ok here you go...

    [​IMG]
     
  7. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
    Supporting Member

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    All of that basically sums up why a lot of the world dislikes us now. We had a chance during the 1st Gulf War to end this but we pussed out and went back on our promise to help Iraqis and it was pretty crappy. If the American government put more thought into what it does after it says something then maybe people in the rest of the world would gain greater respect for us again as liberators and promoters of freedom and not just our own self interests. I am far from anti-war or anti-America, but we have really screwed people over in the past.
     

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