Rep to whoever posts the list. Mostly interested where Hakeem's runs are and if Lebron's non-championship '09 made the list. Thanks in advance.
They made it bunch of pages so it is hard to copy and paste. Here is the top 10: 1. Michael Jordan, Bulls, 1991 2. LeBron James, Heat, 2012 3. Tim Duncan, Spurs, 2003 4. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers, 2000 5. Michael Jordan, Bulls, 1993 6. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers, 2001 7. Hakeem Olajuwon, Rockets, 1994 8. Moses Malone, 76ers, 1983 9. Larry Bird, Celtics, 1984 10. Larry Bird, Celtics, 1986
Posting the list. If you want the details on a specific one, feel free to ask. 1. Michael Jordan, Bulls, 1991 2. LeBron James, Heat, 2012 3. Tim Duncan, Spurs, 2003 4. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers, 2000 5. Michael Jordan, Bulls, 1993 6. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers, 2001 7. Hakeem Olajuwon, Rockets, 1994 8. Moses Malone, 76ers, 1983 9. Larry Bird, Celtics, 1984 10. Larry Bird, Celtics, 1986 11. Tim Duncan, Spurs, 1999 12. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers, 2002 13. Dwyane Wade, Heat, 2006 14. Michael Jordan, Bulls, 1992 15. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Lakers, 1980 16. Magic Johnson, Lakers, 1987 17. Kobe Bryant, Lakers, 2009 18. Michael Jordan, Bulls, 1997 19. Larry Bird, Celtics, 1981 20. Michael Jordan, Bulls, 1996 21. Tim Duncan, Spurs, 2007 22. LeBron James, Cavaliers, 2009 23. Magic Johnson, Lakers, 1980 24. Magic Johnson, Lakers, 1982 25. Michael Jordan, Bulls, 1998 26. Isiah Thomas, Pistons, 1990 27. Hakeem Olajuwon, Rockets, 1986 28. Scottie Pippen, Bulls, 1996 29. Tim Duncan, Spurs, 2005 30. Hakeem Olajuwon, Rockets, 1995 31. Kobe Bryant, Lakers, 2001 32. Scottie Pippen, Bulls, 1991 33. Charles Barkley, Suns, 1993 34. Kobe Bryant, Lakers, 2010 35. Kevin Durant, Thunder, 2012 36. Michael Jordan, Bulls, 1990 37. Dwight Howard, Magic, 2009 38. David Robinson, Spurs, 1999 39. LeBron James, Cavs, 2007 40. Dirk Nowitzki, Mavericks, 2006 41. Pau Gasol, Lakers, 2010 42. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers, 2004 43. Elvin Hayes, Bullets, 1978 44. LeBron James, Heat, 2011 45. Scottie Pippen, Bulls, 1992 46. Michael Jordan, Bulls, 1989 47. Magic Johnson, Lakers, 1988 48. Manu Ginobili, Spurs, 2005 49. Dwyane Wade, Heat, 2011 50. Dirk Nowitzki, Mavericks, 2011
Thanks. I'm mostly interested in the runs that didn't end in a championship. I'm impressed by Pelton's gall to post runs that didn't end in one given the "CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE EVERYTHING AND NOTHING MATTERS IF IT DIDN'T END IN A CHAMPIONSHIP" rhetoric that persists in sports media (which is actually a recent phenomenon). I guess I'm most interested in Hakeem's '94, '86 (ranked higher than '95), '95 and Lebron's '09 and '11. Thanks in advance.
I guess he explains it later, but it's impossible to tell how subjective he's being versus objective. Take his #3 Tim Duncan, which he notes: "In terms of raw playoff WARP, Duncan's 2003 playoff run (8.0) tops the list because the Spurs, as noted in the introduction, needed 24 games to win the championship -- playing exactly six games in every series. Don't blame Duncan. No superstar has done more to drag an undermanned team to the title." For one, yes, Hakeem did more in 93/94. Second, WARP? He already notes why that measure makes no sense here. But the real issue to consider is competition. Did the Spurs beat the Lakers that year? Yes. And did Duncan play great in that series? Yes, absolutely. But for one I don't think he meaningfully outplayed Shaq. But moreover, it was against the Mavs and the Nets in the Finals where he upped his game another notch. Remember who the big men were on those 02/03 squads? The Mavs had Raef Lafrentz (and btw, Dirk only played the first 3 games of that series). The Nets... Kenyon Martin and Jason Collins. yes, that Jason Collins. Is his performance in those series still absolutely amazing? yes. I've conceded that. But from a competitive perspective... wow. That's not to say Olajuwon played every series against Wilt and Kareem. But can anyone point to another example of an MVP getting so thoroughly demolished in a series by his direct competitor?? In the history of the NBA? It just doesn't ever happen. And it's not like DRob obviously shouldn't have won the MVP. Maybe Hakeem should have deserved it, but Robinson was fantanstic that year. He just got so outplayed. Moreover, I find the 98-03 ish timeframe of the NBA one of the worst stretches in a long time. Maybe I'm biased since the Rockets were puke, but that time frame represented the diminishing of the old guard - Stockton, Malone, Hakeem, MJ, Barkley, Robinson, etc., etc. - while still waiting for much of the new guard - today's players. You did have Shaq in his prime, and much respect there, and Duncan obviously, and Kobe going into his prime, and Garnett and prime TMac. It's not that there weren't great players. It's just that you also had Allen Iverson as a "league leader", and the Nets as a multiple Finals team, and Antoine Walker and Shawn Marion and Peja and Lamar Odom winning player of the months, and Latrell Sprewell and Stephon Marbury and Eddie Jones making an all NBA team, etc, etc,... I'm sure someone who grew up in that era could make a valid argument for it, but I'm sorry, I've just never put much stock in it. While you still had some ALL-TIME greats (Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, etc.) it seemed like the league as a whole was fairly watered down. just my two cents.
The Nets were the best defensive team in the NBA that year. So I don't think you should discount what Duncan did against the Nets.
A team with the starting 5 of Kidd, Kittles (lol), Jefferson (lol), Martin, and Collins (lol) was the best defensive team in the NBA that year! And Collins was guarding Duncan. Yikes!!! That is very telling indeed and making Jayz's point.. I think that qualifies as one of the worst teams to ever make the finals.
Ah I didn't see the explanation so I guess he's saying it's better because of A) the second scorer scored less than half of what Olajuwon averaged and B) he was a better defender. I can understand point A but B he bases solely on blocks and Olajuwon didn't exactly get worse on defense in just a year..
I don't even understand point A. As he notes himself, the arrival of Drexler is just as likely and frankly should have resulted in Olajuwon scoring less, with another superstar to take the burden of him offensively. The guy is throwing out stats, but generally just randomly going by gut it seems. Moreover, I again note that he's seemingly completely ignored competition. The difference in competition between 93/94 and 94/95 is somewhat night and day imo. In 94/95, by virtue of the team's lower seeding, they played 4 teams that each in their own right could have made the Finals/won the championship. They played teams with 60 (in the first round!), 59, 62 and 57 wins. By comparison the previous year they played teams with 47, 56, 53 and 57 wins - big difference. AND Hakeem had the DRob domination. Again, how can that be overlooked? You dominate your head to head opponent like that, who just won the MVP... it's unprecedented. It NEVER happens. Frankly, most of the time superstars don't even guard each other that much anymore. And then go on to sweep a Shaq lead Magic team. And yes Shaq was young, but like Olajuwon he was dominant when he was young. I mean check out the final two games of that Finals sweep. Hakeem had 31 pts, 14 rb, 7 ass, 0 block, 2 steals 35 pts, 15 rbs, 6 ass, 0 block, 3 steals Shaq played great, too, mind you... but he's freaking a great great great center. I just have a real problem with the playoff runs in the time frame I noted above. Again to pick on Duncan, in no run did he ever go through a gauntlet of MVP and an all time great in HEAD TO HEAD matchups at his position. It's nice to compare Duncan and Shaq for example in their matchup in Duncan's 02/03 playoff win against the Lakers (the ONLY real competition they faced). But by virtue of Duncan playing PF, he wasn't HEAD TO HEAD versus Shaq most of the time. I hate to harp on it, but the posts above narrow in on just how ho hum that era was to me. You had the Raptors make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. You had the Bucks consistently making it deep in the playoffs. You had the Nets making multiple Finals appearances and as the best defensive team. And aside from the Spurs and Lakers and maybe a year or two of the Kings, the West wasn't exactly all that either. Mind you, I have the same thoughts about Shaq's runs. Now, Shaq's runs were ridiculously dominant in 99/00 and 00/01 in the playoffs. I mean crazy crazy numbers. But again, consider the competition: 99/00: Kings, Suns, Blazers, Pacers 00/01: Blazers, Kings, Spurs, Sixers Not only is the competition generally vastly inferior (say, compared to the great teams of the 90s in the playoffs), but there was very little in terms of truly dominant big-men. This was the era where Rik Smits was being elevated for some unknown reason (ok player, but nowhere close to a great. also 99/00 was his last year in the league and he was freaking horrible in the playoffs), where the Kings system played towards pace and inflated stats, and where Shaq's big competition was Dikembe Mutombo? Please. Yes, he played the Spurs for one series in there... where he was guarded by 35 year old DRob and Malik Rose as much as anyone.... Hakeem went head to head, in their primes, against DRob and Ewing - the other "great" centers of his generation. He went head to head against the Diesel (a young Diesel, but a dominant Diesel). He made it twice through a Jazz team that went on to the Finals just thereafter and with 2 of the greatest players ever. He made it past a Barkley Suns team that had just lost in the Finals. I mean think about it: Jazz (2x), Suns (2x), Spurs, Knicks, Magic... all these teams either previously or shortly thereafter were in the Finals themselves. Shaq played the Spurs.
The reason Hakeem's 1995 season was dropped was because offenses in 1995 on average were amazing. So Hakeem was less above average despite posting beastly numbers. The average postseason offense in 1995 scored 110.6 points per 100 possession (no team this year has an offense in the playoffs as good as the AVERAGE offense that year). Also the Rockets' defense was below average. I dunon if you're just lost or have no idea what you're talking about. Jefferson and Collins were great defenders. Jefferson used to be really good at basketball. That Nets team was fantastic defensively while being below average offensively (think modern day Celtics or Pacers). They were the best team in the East via SRS (looks at strength of schedule and point differential). They were the 4th best team in the NBA.
Also the above point about Rockets not having an above average defense in the postseason is extremely dumb and a clear flaw in what Pelton used. The Rockets played the best, 3rd best, 4th best and 5th best regular season offenses in the playoffs that year.
You may be the first person to ever call Jefferson and Collins great defenders. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they were scrubs - they were clearly solid players with great understanding of defensive concepts. And as you note, the Nets were rated as a great defensive team that year. though it should be noted Jefferson and Collins both had worse Drtg than the team average that year. But the eye test has to come into play a bit. That team was not the equivalent of a modern day (or couple years ago) Celtics, or the Pistons team that won the championship. Maybe ala a current Pacers squad? Maybe. I'd rate the Pacers slightly higher. But the best thing you can say about the Pacers this year is that they "almost" beat the Heat in the ECF. I put "almost" in quotes because whatever the deal is with the Heat, it's clear they're not the MJ Bulls when it comes to killer instinct out there... But nobody is going to remember this Pacers team as a great team in the future. Not the way the mid 90's had the Rockets, Spurs, Suns, Sonics and Jazz all as legitimate teams that could make it to and/or win the Finals regularly. Or even as good as a mid 90's Knicks squad, or the mid 90's Pacers squad.
I am not the one lost. That was one of the weakest finals team ever. EVER. From a weak Eastern conference. Looking at the Nets numbers against a really pathetic Eastern conference. Seriously?? Jefferson and Collins great defenders. *laugh* This coming from someone who questioned if Prince was a great defender on the Detroit championship team. And comparing that Nets team to the modern day Celtics, especially the one that won the championship? *Yikes* Watch the games. Dont just look at the numbers.
The Pacers are getting so overrated. The Knicks are idiots. They got blown out by the Hawks twice. The Heat have a stupid on/off switch. There was no way the Heat were gonna actually lose that series. Team concept is what matters. Jefferson and Collins in that system did their job and did it well on defense. Mutumbo off the bench helped Collins as well. Allowed Collins to do his fun hard fouls. Modern day Celtics = Celtics of last 2-3 years. The 2008 Celtics were one of the best teams ever. Even better in 2009 before KG's injury. Obviously I'm comparing them to the modern teams that suck offensively and are great defensively. That Celtics team made it to game 7 in 2010 with a completely **** offense. The Celtics are such an obvious comparison down to being led by a fast pass first PG who can't shoot (Kidd was better than Rondo though). I'm not arguing the Nets were a juggernaut. They were the best defensive team in the NBA that year and Duncan dominating them was impressive. I don't see why you're blaming Duncan for destroying the best defensive team in the NBA that year. Putting up those numbers and having the whole offense run through you against a really good defensive team is impressive. Especially when there is no other developed threat (Parker, Ginobili and Robinson weren't nearly what they had been/became).
Also there's no shame in not outplaying Prime Shaq who has basically the greatest peak along with Jordan in NBA history.
