Ignoring midrange will kill us

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by OTMax, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. rocketsballin

    rocketsballin Member

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    it doesnt look like u or nuebauer read my post. i never said anything about abandoning the 3pt heavy offense. i said we shouldnt abandon the mid range game. read it again yall.
     
  2. bingsha10

    bingsha10 Member

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    i'm hoping with it being so early the Rockets are just doing what they are going to be best at, what is going to win them the most games...the 3pt heavy offense. That's the 1st options and it should be. They need to be very good at it and there are a number of new players on the team who have to get used to it...Paul included. It's going to win a lot of games this year.

    But last years playoffs showed that when a good defense team wants to, they can just park their defenders out on the 3 pt line and take that away. Then you MUST have a plan B or you are going to get wrecked. I'm assuming the Rockets know that and will be implementing off ball screens and such as the season goes on. That's really what they need to add even more than a midrange game They don't have to do a lot of that to score, they just have to do enough to loosen up the defense when the other team sells out to stop the 3.
     
  3. brewer's goat

    brewer's goat Member

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    Our offense was underwhelming against OKC as well. It's not about who we faced, but more about does this three-point trigger happy strategy work on the big stage, given our personnel. I don't have to remind you that we don't have players such as Curry, Klay, and Durant. Harden used to be a decent outside shooter, now honestly I don't think he's even average at this pace.

    I'm especially worried about Harden because of the 'Harden rule' that the refs are supposed to enforce this season. You take away FTs from Harden while at the same time his outside shooting keeps declining... this is a recipe for disaster
     
    #43 brewer's goat, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  4. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Can we please stop with this, "We couldn't even upset SAS, the superior team" like it was a horrible failure.

    That team who beat us was the top defense in the league with the best coach in the league, and won 62 games in the RS, and we absolutely blew them out in 2 of first four games, and took them to OT on their own court in historically the most difficult playoff game to win -- Game 5, Away, tied 2-2.

    We clearly had the worse talent between the two teams. And we blew them out with our system in 2 games, which gave us a fighter's chance to steal a close OT Game 5 Away, for a 3-2 lead headed home. I don't know how you can view that as anything other than proving the game plan of using 3s and Harden PnRs to upset a superior opponent, worked as best as anything we could have drawn up with that team.

    And this year we added Paul and better bench.
     
  5. snowconeman22

    snowconeman22 Member

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    Yes, I was talking about Green at about 3 seconds. Though it looks like Paul has him laterally from the get-go and could have taken the mid-range. But after Green moves to his next position, that mid-range is no longer the best option, taking it to the rim is. Paul made the right decision. I never said he should have taken the mid-range.

    What i did say , is that it is a bit disingenuous to suggest that people that are in favor of more mid-range shots would have preferred to have Paul shoot a jumper on that play.

    I haven't knocked Paul's play at all. The only bad shot i remember him taking was a contested 3 over Wright when it looked like the entire side had cleared out and he should've driven right by him for the basket

    However, even with a HOF player i worry about habits forming.

    I did not like the balance in James' shot selection last season and worry that his focus on 3's took away some of the moves that made him a great scoring closer in 14-15.
     
  6. DrNuegebauer

    DrNuegebauer Member

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    How is that a troll?

    You posted some knee jerk crap and i pointed out it was knee jerk crap.

    Just because you say it don't make it so. And as far as using GSW as a 'we can't expect to beat them' - lets be honest at least? The statement needs no qualification at all. We simply cannot expect to beat the Warriors. They are far too good. Our best bet is to play an angle and hope it comes off (ie shoot only 3s).
     
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  7. brewer's goat

    brewer's goat Member

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    Revisionist history much? This wasn't the expectation for the Rockets going up against the Spurs last year. Certainly, the general consensus was that we were much better than just having a 'fighter's chance' against them.

    We only blew them out in game 1 because coach Pop hadn't had figured out us yet. Once he did, we got smoked.

    We started off the series great and ended with one of the worst playoff performances in decades, which is not a good trajectory. It means that we had no plan B once their defense adjusted to our offense and our threes were no longer falling. Maybe we still would have lost had we tried some different strategy, but no, not like that. This level of dogmatic attachment to the Moreyball philosophy and inability to adjust on a game-to-game basis, depending on who your opponent is and how they're playing, should concern every Rockets fan.
     
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  8. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Like I said, Paul never intended to shoot it, as he was looking past Green to see what Gasol was doing. Green didn't force Paul to drive. Only thing Green could stop was the drive.
    And I'm saying it's disingenuous to say Paul is passing up open midrange shots....just because he's making other plays. I used the Vid as an example of how Paul is using the spacing to freeze Gasol.

    Keep an open mind. We've never seen Paul in a system with this much space. He may very well be looking to get to the rim more than ever before...and that's a good thing.
     
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  9. snowconeman22

    snowconeman22 Member

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    ..... I know Paul didn't intend to take the shot .. otherwise he would have since he had space. What i originally said is that the threat of the mid-range allowed Paul to get to the rim. Paul had space, green moved into that space, Paul then drove to the rim.

    If green was only concerned about cutting off Paul's path to the bucket, he would have taken a different route ( this is after the original screen and I agree with you there that Green was lackadaisical )

    I also agreed with you previously that Paul made the right decision to go to the rim and was correct in " passing up" the mid-range shot. I didn't think I said anything disingenuous. I'm trying to be very open and deliberate in this discussion.

    I'm keeping a very open mind about Paul and know that this is only the 2nd time He's played with James vs a professional opponent.

    I also agree partially with the OP and the " midrange" crowd. I have felt that our shot selection in the past has been less than ideal and we may have passed up good midrange shots in order to take a 3.
     
  10. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    You have to shoot and hit SOME
    to keep the THREAT alive

    The THREAT of the MidRange shot opens up other shots and opportunites
    If you don't have that Threat . .then like a significant portion of the floor can remain undefended
    and the rest of the floor is easier to defend.

    Rocket River
     
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  11. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    How many mid range shots do Curry, Klay Thompson and Durant take again? Last year Rockets had just 1 superstar on the team yet got the 3rd best record and the 2nd round in the West. The results have always been there, you just need to open your eyes and realize that no matter what style you play, if you have just 1 one star while the other team has 3+, you ain't gonna win a 7 game series.

    This is ridiculous, mid range apologists keep insisting we take the mid range shot without being able to give one good reason to take them. If the 3 is contested YOU DONT HAVE TO TAKE THEM. The system is either one guy will be open or Harden can do 1v1. WTF is that so hard to understand?
     
  12. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    No it doesn't. Mid range shot is right in the middle of all other shots. That means if you are taking mid range shots and the opponent guards you, he can easily cross over to other areas of the court. Just use simple logic, which is easier to guard for a defender? Covering an open 3 pt shot from the lane or covering an open 3 pt shot from the mid range area? How does the mid range area being an open space where nobody is there make the rest of the floor easier to defend? It actually makes it harder to defend because every player is further away from each other! OTH if you have Harden or CP3 taking mid range shots then obviously their defender will follow them to the mid range area, which makes it harder for everyone to score because everyone is a lot closer to each other.

    A lot of the mid range apologists arguments make no goddamn sense when you really break them down. Why don't you imagine how it works first before you post your arguments?

    The funny thing is this thread was knee jerk reaction to a game where the Rox still won double digits despite both Harden and Cp3 having off nights. The system is so good the rox can still break past 100 with both Harden and Cp3 shooting bricks yet somehow that shows a bad offensive system? WTF
     
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  13. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    The ONLY REASON we had a good chance at beating the Spurs was because of our offense, our offense which shoots a lot of 3s and minimizes mid range shots as much as possible. If you look at the talent on both team it is clearly favoring the Spurs, in a lot of people's eyes Kawhi is better than Harden to say nothing of the rest of the roster. So the only reason we can beat the Spurs is because of our system but you are saying the system is the one that is wrong, are you out of your mind?

    I mean you are building a strawman argument, basically what you are saying is since we lost to the Spurs, then obviously the system sucks. But look at the roster of the Spurs, they have Popovich who is the best coach in the history of the NBA, LMA and Kawhi who are superstars, Parker who is a multiple champion and a bunch of battle tested vets. Who are on the Rockets? James Harden, Nene and Eric Gordon. If you look at it on paper the Spurs are way better than the Rockets and in fact they performed a lot better than the Rockets all season long which is why they had the 2nd best record in the league.

    Just use the reverse of your argument, do you think if Harden took mid range shots they would have won against the Spurs? You mean to say Kawhi won't be able to defend Harden's mid range shots when mid range shots are a lot easier to defend then 3 pt shots and paint shots? Unlike the rockets the Spurs offense actually has a ton of mid range shots, they are basically a mid range team. So you mean to tell me if the Rockets tried to copy them they will be able to beat the Spurs at their own game, Harden, Ariza and Anderson's mid range shots are gonna go in more than Kawhi, LMA and Parker's? Gimme a break!
     
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  14. rocketsballin

    rocketsballin Member

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    i dont even know what you're saying now. knee jerk how? i just showed the best scorers last season havent abandoned the mid range game, including two of the best shooters in history and a top 3 player in durant.

    we aint beating the warriors int he po's w/o a big3 im not talking about that. im talking specifically about abandonging the mid range game.

    jackin up 3s hoping we make them is just stupid. warriors aint gonna be at the top forever and we're one of the few teams that has a chance to beat them with a missing pieace away. just play our own game like every other team and keep building the team, aiming for a 3rd star.
     
  15. rocketsballin

    rocketsballin Member

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    i just posted all those 3 warriors didnt abandon the mid range game. look back on page 1.

    i didnt say anything about beating the warriors nor did i imply.
     
  16. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    The only teams who beat the Rockets are Spurs, GSW and Cleveland, all teams who have 3+ superstars on their roster vs Houston with a measly 1.

    Every other team who faced Houston got their ass handed to them, period. So if you are saying you don't expect the Rockets to beat GSW with mid range shots what exactly are you saying? Are you just complaining for the sake of complaining? The Rockets already achieved the best possible result with their system, they are the only team with only 1 superstar yet they won more games than Cleveland who had 3 superstars on their team. Look at OKC, they had a similar talent level as Houston but since they run the worst system ever (lots of mid range shots c/o WB) they barely squeaked into the playoffs.

    Similar talent level, vastly different results. The difference is one team minimized the worst shot in bball, the other team embraced it with open arms. Show me a mid range team with just 1 superstar who achieved better results than the Rockets. Without any proof how can you say abandoning the mid range is wrong?
     
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  17. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Reason is breaks in the playoffs
    Is I can charge hard to the 3 point shooter
    My help rotates to the basket knowing that my man won't shoot the mid range shot
    Result is
    1. a Charge Call
    2. a defended lay 'attempt'
    3. a pass off/reset
    ------ Which is just starting over or the defense jumps the lanes and they are off to the races

    In the playoffs - You hard charge the 3 pt shooters and run them off the line. You help down low sets for the charge / defense
    and your parameter guys jump all passing lanes

    Rocket River
     
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  18. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    If it's there, take it. Stop being so damn predictable.

     
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  19. rocketsballin

    rocketsballin Member

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    im saying we should play to the best of our abilities instead of trying hail mary game plans against gsw

    okc didnt have the talent around wb and still doesnt have enough around their big 3. that and wb hogging, coach bs'ing is why they were a 1st round exit
    cleveland is in the east, they can "take games off". im not gonna hodl their regular season numbers against them in comparison to the po's, esp being the east
     
  20. AlaisterCuaresma

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    I know it's only pre-season but it seems to be working so far. I just finished watching the Rockets vs Grizzlies highlights today and when they were ahead we managed to cut down that lead in no time with a couple of threes. As much as I agree with you, if it ain't broke don't fix it. :)

    LET'S GO ROCKETS!
     
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