Ignoring midrange will kill us

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by OTMax, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    43,917
    Likes Received:
    4,083
  2. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,500
    Likes Received:
    209
    I am referring to when they have an open 2, but look for open 3 instead, which sometimes may result in a contested 3s. I think the idea is if they are open for 2, but think there may result in an open 3 if they pass, they will pass. It's pure guessing of course, from observation.
     
  3. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    49,529
    Likes Received:
    18,361
    OK, I'd agree with a pass to 3 that has a strong close-out resulting in another pass or drive...neither of which might be better than for Paul or Harden to just take that 2....(especially, ugh, Ariza drive or Ryno headfake)

    I was just saying that stats irrefutably indicate that we don't standout as a team who shoots contested 3s at a higher frequency than others... we might even be one of the best in the league at avoiding them.
     
    #303 heypartner, Dec 4, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
    D-rock, BigMaloe and DonKnock like this.
  4. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,500
    Likes Received:
    209
    Agreed. I was using the wrong phrasing initially. We really do excel at getting open 3s and avoid contested 3s. It is however arguable, that due to our "fame" of looking for 3s, it places us at a position where the other team deliberately gives up mid 2s to cover the 3pt line and rim, and we may not have exploited that enough when the time comes.
     
    heypartner and hakeem94 like this.
  5. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    49,529
    Likes Received:
    18,361
    The Jazz and tonight's game is always supposed to be one of the big tests for Rockets not shooting midrange. (Reminder: Harden scored 56 points vs Jazz back on Nov 5th, w/o Paul vs Gobert).

    http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/rockets/amp/Rockets-ready-to-solve-Jazz-defense-12411155.php

    "Chris is really good, and James, too, at the midrange game," D'Antoni said, insisting he does not consider "midrange jumpers" to be banned words. "If they give up the midrange game, we'll take those little 15-footers. We won't love it. But if that's all that's there and it's good, we have two in the best in the league to do it. It's not bad."

    Added Harden: "I don't not take midrange shots. I take what the defense gives me."​
     
    D-rock, vince, banzai and 6 others like this.
  6. BigMaloe

    BigMaloe Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    10,183
    Likes Received:
    4,595
    Have the Rockets died yet?

    Asking for a friend...
     
  7. iJHolmes

    iJHolmes Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    3,186
    Likes Received:
    114
    works for golden state, why would it kill us. We suck at shooting midrange anyway. Unless you're capela/nene/other people who shouldnt be shooting 3s, we shouldn't be shooting midrange.
     
  8. seeingred

    seeingred Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    200
    i think this is what most of us who are concerned needed to hear. We don't take a lot of mid range because we get so many layups and open 3s - cool. But we know - we have SEEN - good teams take away both layups (with helps from the refs) and 3s (switching and strong close outs). One point to add is: all of our mid range jumpers come off the dribble. I think that's significant as it's usually a lower % shot than a catch and shoot. Because no non-center player sets up anywhere but the 3 pt line, our mid-range shots come from 1) Paul or Harden beating their man and pulling up instead of attacking the Center or 2) A Ryno/Ariza type side stepping the close out defender and pulling up instead of attacking the Center.

    #1 is great if the refs are cheating us. #2 is a little scary.
     
  9. meh

    meh Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    14,524
    Likes Received:
    785
    People seem to think for whatever reason that the Rockets would somehow score more points if Ryan Anderson parked at the FT line like Juwan Howard we'd somehow be better cause that's a shot opponents would give freely or something. It's not like the Spurs last playoffs would've been screwed if we didn't have 3 point shooters but had 18 ft jump shooters instead around Harden. That's not how basketball works and it was never gonna be a panacea for our troubles in the playoffs. That would've just made things worse because the court shrinks and you can'et spacing for drives.

    The Rockets last year succeeded a lot on smoke and mirrors but with CP3 now it's much more legit. A lot of times it's just a matter of having more talent and we now added one of the best.
     
  10. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    49,529
    Likes Received:
    18,361
    I don't think this is demonstrably true at all...at least not in the same defensive possessions. To think so is to say there is a silver-bullet defense. What we see in games last year is we can lose to even bad teams when we indeed miss our wide-open threes caused by defenses taking away Harden's drives. We definitely had to make our open shots to win against good teams.

    So, as the coaches and Morey do, if you look at Open 3s vs Points on Drives, the trend (and this is true for first 5 games of SAS series, and pretty much all of OKC), we get 45+ looks from 3 in games the defense locks in on Harden and Capela (because it always requires help), or, when teams hold us to under 35 looks from three by not sending aggressive help to stop the PnR, the combination of Harden and Capela/Nene points noticeably soar....that is, Harden drove/ooped more vs passed.

    This doesn't mean we win, but I'm a big believer in MDA's system that there is no silver bullet to stop threes and drives in the same defense. Mid-range is not really needed more than Harden naturally does it, because there is no defense that takes away both the perimeter and Harden...especially now that his step-back 3 is just unfair...and now that we have more fire-power with Paul.
     
    D-rock, hakeem94 and BigMaloe like this.
  11. Deuce

    Deuce Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Messages:
    15,587
    Likes Received:
    4,132
    If teams close out on 3pt shooters and sag back on the lob (like the Spurs) the Rockets (Harden and Paul) could make a living on floaters in the lane.
     
    D-rock likes this.
  12. basketballholic

    basketballholic Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    14,339
    Likes Received:
    1,740
    In Rocket wins our opponents take an average of 12.4 shots from midrange (15-23 feet) and hit 4.2 of those shots (33.9%).

    In 4 Rocket losses our opponents take an average of 7.8 shots from midrange (15-23 feet) and hit 3.3 of those shots (42.3%).

    The 4.6 extra possessions that we don't make the opponent shoot from midrange in our 4 losses go directly into free throws (fouls) and shots at the rim.

    We're not forgetting about midrange at all.
     
  13. elmotsangtt

    elmotsangtt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2016
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    242
    Michael Beasley is our choice. It is useful to beat spurs for midrange cum shoot
     
  14. OTMax

    OTMax Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2013
    Messages:
    6,841
    Likes Received:
    1,786
    Tonight proved that against great defensive teams like the Jazz, who can protect the paint and stay on our 3pt shooters that you need to incorporate some mid-range, which thank God CP3 provides. We don't win this game without it since we missed a lot at the rim and Ryno and our team will not shoot like that every game. We need more plays with ball and body movement to at least by a threat from mid-range. That whole 2nd quarter with us standing around, missing lay-ups and shooting threes was the perfect example why you cannot just ignore it.
     
    hakeem94 likes this.
  15. And1redux

    And1redux Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    157
    I still think we lost that Spurs series because we were way too stubborn with implementing our moreyball philosophy. The whole time they were giving up easy midrange shots, and we just didn't take ANY advantage of it. What boggles my mind is that there are so many people to this day who still deny that was the main reason why we lost that series, and even double down on 'no midrange whatsoever' strategy. Just reading through this thread gives me a headache as to how people can be so obtuse when it comes to this issue.

    Hey, at least MDA and Morey seemed to have wised up, because in recent interviews they all seemed to agree that sometimes midrange shots are all that's available, and we're not going to shy away from taking them.
     
  16. OTMax

    OTMax Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2013
    Messages:
    6,841
    Likes Received:
    1,786
    If teams take away certain shots, you have to adjust to win. Cannot bank on getting hot from three. This year we have a much better chance though against any team because we play defense now. Still, if we played like last night against the top dogs without CP3 hitting some jumpers with us missing from everywhere else, there’s a big chance you don’t win.
     
  17. mfastx

    mfastx Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2009
    Messages:
    7,599
    Likes Received:
    635
    Good to see CP3 taking advantage of what the defense was giving him and shooting some midrange shots. Obviously we want to look for 3s and layups first, but the Jazz are a great defensive team and took that away on some possessions. It was great to see CP3 take advantage of those openings in the midrange rather than one of them just jacking a contested 3.
     
  18. BigMaloe

    BigMaloe Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    10,183
    Likes Received:
    4,595
    LOL we would not have lost he game if not for the mid range.

    THe reason I like cp3 doing his (extremely close) mid range was because Gobert was sagging the alley pop so it eventually dragged him out of the restricted to contest and thus opening the rim for the lob.

    Also our offense wasn’t fluid at all, it looked so labored and uncomfortable out there. We had no mojo, so cp3 doing a couple was fine because he kinda kept us in the lead while we were playing the jazz at their slow grind it out tempo.

    Icymi we blew them out in that 3rd and won this game because of the 3 ball and pushing pace, not the mid range.
     
    coyotetex likes this.
  19. Sidarma

    Sidarma Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    942
    Likes Received:
    292
    Calm down Cp3 hit a couple today against Jizz.
     
  20. OTMax

    OTMax Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2013
    Messages:
    6,841
    Likes Received:
    1,786
    I’m saying Ryno doesn’t shoot like that every game and we cannot bank on 40%+ from three against teams like this, the top dogs. If we incorporate more body and ball movement and at least the threat of a close-to-midrange shot then you wouldn’t see those scoring droughts as much and we’d struggle less.CP3 could’ve gotten even more. Harden too. Hell Gordon is so short on shots lately, he should get some. Last night he should have instead of going at a packed paint and coming up with nothing.
     
Loading...

Share This Page