Ignoring midrange will kill us

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by OTMax, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. LosPollosHermanos

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    @Mathloom Stick to the D&D you are out of your league here. Your gross oversimplification of the game is an insult to the greats like Pop-- who Incorporated analytics into their FO long before the rockets, shot more 3s long before the rockets. There is a reason teams like the spurs and warriors have rings. There is a reason they don't just shoot 3s all freaking game. I assure your it's not because they missed your worldly uninformed opinion on the matter
     
  2. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    See this is the thing with you guys, you glorify the past. Meanwhile the FO - thank god - is pioneering the future. We were a better offense than the Spurs with equal/lesser offensive talent last season.

    What we need to pick up from them is what they were elite at: defense. They were number 1 at defense.

    The reason the Spurs and Warriors have rings is irrelevant unless you are going to magically pull some statistics out of your butt that say they won championships because they took mid range jumpers. Which is something no one in this entire thread has done. Just making **** up because you like the way a mid range J looks I guess.

    Btw, it's not my opinion, it's the opinion of one of the elite statisticians (Morey) and one of the elite offensive coaches (MDA) in the NBA, and these two have made careers out of WAY overperforming offensively vs the talent on the roster.

    One more time, I'm done here until someone can prove a direct link between taking mid range jumpers and OPTIMIZING the talent on the roster. Don't tell me a former champion took mid range J's >> every former champion did and it has been declining steadily. And most champions are pioneers, just like the warriors, just like the Spurs.
     
  3. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    Not to be ubtose here @Mathloom but you are one pulling stats out of your ass presenting them as hard facts and objective truths which they just aren’t. People on here who understand the importance of midrange and mixing it up look at history and use common sense. The philosophy of Morey hasn’t proven anything yet. The Warriors don’t play the way we do. Nobody does so they’re not an example and an outlier with all their talent. Maybe your vision of Morey’s philosophy can work if you have the Warriors roster, but there’s no evidence it would.
     
  4. LosPollosHermanos

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    You are embarrassing yourself at this point by still not comprehending the point at hand, either that or you're being purposefully obnoxious like Sam. Nobody is saying he 3 isn't more efficIent you moron. When making investments certain entities have a greater return and you invest accordingly. But you DIVERSIFY your portfolio. Saying you are going to shoot 3s all game or run in for fouls is absolutely retarded. If you are arguing against having a diverse and versatile offense you need to stop posting in this thread and the GARM as you clearly don't understand basketball. This whole idea of "midrange" as a label shows how out of touch you are. Anything that isn't a layup or 3 (over 80% of the shootable space on the floor is considered that). If you can't hit an open bankshot off the glass from 6-10 ft away you WILL NOT make a high school JV team. Every player on the roster can make that in their sleep. The issue is running plays and finding those shots.

    Your undersranding of statistics is also rudimentary. A shot 6" further back from a layup isn't something you would consider midrange but would be labeled as such by your criteria. It's not a categorical/nominal entity...it's a continuous measure on a scale. If you can't understand that, a simple fact you really shouldn't be parading around the statistical aspect.

    When you take those shots it opens up the floor. You haven't played competitive basketball so take your "because Morey"---which btw doesn't mean Jack, last I checked it wasn't an outcome measure--and go learn from those that have played this sport on a competitive level. Try opening your narrow minded view to those that are succeeding in this league and why their approach is different from the rockets. Blind homerism isn't going to make you a better fan if that is what you are hoping to achieve.
     
    #264 LosPollosHermanos, Nov 2, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
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  5. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    Harden, CP3, and Ego need to have a diverse offensive arsenal and not be restricted to just layups and threes, everyone else on the roster is most effective strictly playing Moreyball

    if we are going to launch so many threes, we could at least try to get more quality threes instead of jacking up garbage...push the pace, get more off ball movement, etc...that will lead to better looks and higher percentage from deep
     
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  6. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    I disagree respectfully. Ryan showed last night he can still post up and hit that one legged fade away from inside the arc, Nene hit a shot from top of the key which he's been hitting since with the Rockets etc. Your other point is spot on, I don't understand how MDA was such a genius with the Suns, because here it's mostly Harden who's created open shots. Maybe some sets are by design, but it's so simplistic that the good defensive teams can take it away. When we win is because we're too skilled, not because we're playing such elite offensive basketball. That's why I personally don't agree with any stat that puts us in the top 10 of all time. There's just no way. Adelman's offenses were way more complicated, diverse and effective yet his Kings are not on there. That's enough evidence for me.
     
  7. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    midrange was about to happen.
     
  8. YaoMing#1

    YaoMing#1 Member

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    I wish the rocketed specifically Harden would take some mid range jumpers.

    With that said using the warriors as an example is poor imo.

    They have the most talent on a single NBA team in NBA history. It's impossible to duplicate what they have going on. They win chips because the talent of there 5 best players is off the charts.

    To think the warriors wouldn't win a championships playing in MDA/Morey ball is just wrong. They would absolutely kill teams playing the way the rockets do. They might actually be better from and offensive rating standpoint.
     
  9. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    Harden used every area on the floor available and it was glorious. I never claimed we should get away from threes and layups, you just cannot pass up good opportunities from midrange and ignore it when you have guys who can do damage from there. In particular when the paint is packed and threes aren’t falling.
     
  10. Mathrocker

    Mathrocker Member

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    No one disagrees with that.

    This post does not reflect everything that youve said about the rockets and midrange lol.

    Im sure even @Mathloom agrees with this post.
     
  11. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    We took about 8 per game last season. That's PLENTY.

    I don't agree with the notion that if the paint is packed and the 3's aren't falling we should take mid range jumpers >> AFAIC, the next 3 is going in. That's what any shooter will tell you. It's either a good shot or a bad shot. How many you've missed so far is irrelevant. You can miss 15 in a row and make the next 15.

    I think a mid range jumper should be taken when our C is in a stupid position, an all-nba defender is guarding Harden, and the opposing C is free to fish for the block and every perimeter player is so tightly guarded that the ball can't get to them. This occurs, maybe, once a game. We take 8 mid range shots. If this is happening often, the offense is broken. It doesn't mean we are going to resurrect ourselves by accessing a skill that we do not even value in acquiring players. Chris Paul, of course, being the lucky exception. I would like Chris Paul to take mid range jumpers when he's open for them. But that is an entirely different category, just like Kevin Durant.

    The narrative that these posters are pushing is totally mythical. I don't know if it's OCD or just a fetishization of old basketball, but bottom line is there are no teams capable of regularly denying attacks to the rim and 25+ foot good 3 point attempts against a Harden/MDA offense that is not making unforced errors. That is not why we lost to the Spurs - we lost to the Spurs because they're excellent at defense and because Harden fizzled out (for whatever reason you want to believe). Taking mid range J's vs the Spurs is a death penalty.

    Anyways, I've overdone talking about this again. Gnight!
     
  12. rocketsballin

    rocketsballin Member

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    do any of you go to the rockets subreddit? like mathloo,m, they're fully onboard with this zero-midrange shots offense.
     
  13. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

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    We are 2nd in the league in number of and percentage of 3s taken that are considered wide open and are 1st in number of and in percentage of 3 pointers taken that are considered open.

    We are generating quality 3 point looks at a very high rate.
     
  14. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

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    Are we dead yet?
     
  15. MorningZippo

    MorningZippo Member

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    The average age of Reddit posters tell you exactly why that's the case.
     
  16. napalm_black

    napalm_black Contributing Member

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    I will side with whoever wrotrs the longest post! Go!
     
  17. Samiam1234

    Samiam1234 Member

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    i love this shot chart
     
  18. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    [​IMG]

    And that doesn't count Ryno's backdoor cut for a slam, or his 5-9 threes, today.
     
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  19. DatRocketFan

    DatRocketFan Member

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    We are winning with little to no mid range shots, soooooo it's okay so far.
     
  20. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    We lost 4 of 21.

    Not good - you lose 4 in the playoffs and you are done.

    Fool's gold.
     
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