Beating a soft jump shooting team that Durant himself could have beaten last year b4 choking it away? This is exactly the storyline that Silver has set up. GOAT talk for beating the 4 star Warriors "by himself." Cavs WILL beat the Warriors. It's the better story.
He went ring less for 7 years(technically 6 b/c he missed nearly the full 2nd season). Didn't win till he had Pippen and Rodman? Well, he had 3 rings with Pippen before Rodman. The same amount LeBron currently has. Rodman was 34, 35, 36 years old by the time he joined the 3 time champion Bulls, but Wade at 28 was old and past his prime by the time LeBron joined him right? No other star had a competent team around him in the East? Are you kidding? There were some very stacked Knicks, Pacers, heat and Magic teams...tf you talking about? Stockton(top 5 pg ever) and Malone (top 3 PF ever) are trashy role players compared to Pippen and 35-36 year old Dennis Rodman? Okay pal. EDIT: Just saw you meant the Jazz were the best team he ever faced(okay..) and that Malone and Stockton's teammates were all "trashy." Never mind the HOF coach and system/discipline, Jeff Hornacek was better than Gordon hayward, the rest of the guys were good ROLE players. What? Did Jordan have superstars on his team other than Pippen? No, he had role players all the same. Unless you're one of those LeBron fans that tells people Horace Grant was better than Chris Bosh and Kevin Love and BJ Armstrong was better than kyrie Irving and Steve Kerr was better than ray Allen and Toni Kukoc could have been better than Larry Bird if he wanted. Can't forget the formidable front lines of Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, Will Purdue and 34-36 year old Cartwright. Judd Bucheler is better than any bench player LeBron has ever had! BTW. Scottie Pippen is the one and only All-Star teammate of MJ's entire career. Why i even bother addressing people who clearly have no idea what they're talking about? Beats me. I'm bored. That's what todays NBA does i guess.
Last year's win was pretty incredible. But if he beats GS this year with their two MVPs and all-star supporting cast, then yes he sets the benchmark for best player all time. Who else has ever had to face a team like GS? What else would need to be done on Lebron's part? He's got nothing left to prove. I'm sorry, but not all championships are the same. Context matters. Steph Curry has one, but all the teams he faced that year were banged up. It was a cake walk for him. Kobe has five rings vs Hakeem's two, but his first three were as a second banana to Shaq. I'd take Hakeem over Kobe, especially if we were playing 90s ball over today's guard-driven league, number of rings be damned.
And it hasn't been an ENTIRE CAREER CAKE WALK for Lebron? If you take Hakeem over Kobe b/c of context, then you take Hakeem over Lebron too. Context. LeBron needs 2 other all stars other than himself. Hakeem needs only himself and role players.
I'm a big Lebron fan and think he will eventually be the Goat, but he does lose points for teaming up with another top 5 player and a top 15 player in their primes. Scottie with MJ is totally different. Nobody knew Scottie would be great when they drafted him 5th out of that powerhouse known as central Arkansas. Did you for sure know that Scottie was going to be a hall of famer in 1987? Did you have any idea Phil was going to win 11 rings in 1989? Everybody knew Wade and bosh were great in 2010.
Since he joined Miami, yes, it's been much easier for Lebron. In his first stint in Cleveland I never thought he would win a title with his supporting cast. In Miami, I expected them to win every year. I don't think his current teammates are as good as the Miami teams, but they're certainly stacked. Golden State is even more stacked, though, and he beat them, so I give way more credit to last year's championship than the two in Miami. I think that's fair. He killed them. Outside of Hakeem and Dirk, how many stars did it the "hard way"? Jordan's teams were stacked, he had a top 50 player all-time in Pippen. They won 55 games when he retired the first time. Bird, Magic, Kobe, and Shaq had superstar teammates for all their rings and are in the Pantheon of greats. Curry's great, don't get me wrong, but if Irving and Love were healthy for their first finals I think he'd be ring-less right now. And I don't take Hakeem over Kobe just because of the context of his championships. I take him over Kobe because he's the better player. And I think Lebron is a better player than even Hakeem. If I'm starting a team for any era, the first player I'm taking is Lebron. If you think MJ or any other great is better, that's totally fine, but I'm going with Lebron.
My top Three are 1. LeBron 2. MJ 3. Hakeem . . .. . . . F! U! IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH MY NUMBER THREE Rocket River I guess I should not tell them my #4 is YAO and #5 Is Harden *grin*
It wasn't easy in his first Cavs stint pre Miami? He went o the Finals in 07 having to face 2 40 win teams and a 53 win team in the ECF. But, anyway, i still think these current Cavs are better than the Heat and i also think these Cavs would have beaten those Spurs. Just a better fit as far as Love and Kyrie go with LeBron in a 3pt shooting league plus much better all around role players from 4-10. Outside of Hakeem and Dirk, there's probably only Bill Walton, and Rick Barry and i guess you can say Duncan in '05 and '07 but im not sure which of those guys had an all star teammate that year, i just know Hakeem had no all star teammate in 94 and neither did Dirk in '11. Most other non superstar led teams were stacked 1-5 like 04 Pistons or 70s Knicks. You can take LeBron over Jordan in your fictional draft. There's no right or wrong answer with like 20+ guys in a fictional all time draft. Yes, i would take MJ, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, maaaayyybe Kareem and probably have a hard time passing up on Magic, Bird or Kobe over LeBron, but there's no wrong pick. There's better career and there's better player. I have a hard time saying LeBron OR Kobe are flat out better than Hakeem b/c whatever offensive skill set you think they have better than Hakeem, i think Hakeem has a much greater gap in how much better he is defensively than both of them. But, anyway there's no wrong choice to me. As far as career and advanced stats....everything points to LeBron being right behind MJ as the #2 GOAT. LeBron could end up going down with the greatest CAREER outside of Bill Russell and Kareem, but i agree with Wade and countless others that the GOAT title is locked up. I'll say what i said when Kobe was scoring like crazy every game and all of these talking heads at ESPN and fans were saying Kobe was the GOAT and better than MJ...let 10 years pass after he retires and see who the new kid on the block will be compared to. It won't be Kobe. Won't be LeBron or Curry. The standard for the next greatest was set to be compared with Michael and it wont change for maybe 3 or 4 more decades till he becomes the Wilt and Russell old timer generation of bball like it is today with kids lack of respect for the past. I do absolutely understand that todays world of sports is all about being a prisoner of the moment, and "what has he done for me lately" mentality so i'm preparing myself to just let it go and let time do it's course after the Cavs win the title and ESPN talks 24/7 about LeBron officially being the unofficial GOAT.
voted yes but i think i'll actually go with no on second thought beating these historic warriors teams back to back IMO is definitely better than any of jordan's rings but jordan's resume >>>. bron would have to win this one and at least another to surpass him in most people's eyes. would have to get 6 to be the clear-cut GOAT i think. he's probably #2 right now though and could still end up as #1. but honestly i don't care, the GOAT talk is pretty pointless unless you're actually a stan of the player or the team they're on. as far as who you'd draft, depends how you want to build your team
I'm not so sure about that. They lost in 2011 because LeBron choked in the Finals. He had no problem with how he "brought it" prior to the Finals, so they likely beat Dallas and everyone in the West to get to the Finals. He beat the West's best teams in 2012 and 2013. Wade was gimpy by the Finals in 2014. If they played the Spurs in an earlier round then maybe he woulda been more impactful. I'm assuming Love doesn't get his arm pulled out in the West in 2015, since Kelly O was in the East. He got to G6 without him or Kyrie, so I'd give him the nod in the West with both healthy. The only year I can say he wouldn't have gone for sure is 2007, and I may give you 2014.
Yeah, playing on a team that was good enough to win 50+ games and get close to the ECF's without him. His team was better than anyone else. But Rodman was still great, no matter his age. The Knicks were stacked with Starks as the 2nd best player? The Pacers were stacked with Miller as the best player? No team had as much talent as the Bulls. Yet Rodman is in the HOF. Every time Jordan won, his team had more supporting talent than the others. He retired and they almost went to a conf finals man!!!
It depends on HOW he "crush" the Warriors. If the Warriors have key injuries, then there may be doubt. If the Cavs other stars step up playing more important or equal roles than LeBron in winning, then there may be doubt.
Krause knew, which is why he traded up for him and tried to prevent him from working out with other teams.
This is a commonly repeated talking point, but there are major problems with it. First, there were a lot of roster changes between the 1993 and 1994 Bulls. None of the additions were marquee players, but they were rotational players who weren't on the 1993 Bulls. Secondly, and more importantly, the 1994 Bulls made the 2nd round of the playoffs, but no one pays attention to their first round opponent, the Cavaliers. In the playoffs, the 1994 Cavaliers were missing both Brad Daugherty and Hot Rod Williams, 2 of their 3 best regular season players. That the 1994 Bulls advanced to the second round speaks more to the weakness of their opponent than the strength of their roster.
They swept the Cavs and barely lost to the Knicks. The Knicks had a razor's edge over them and went to the finals. They won 55 games in the regular season, a drop of two whole games from the season prior. I don't think minor roster changes should preserve your win total that much when the GOAT literally retires on you.
Yeah and what did they do in 95 without MJ? Floating around .500 Try telling that to LeBron fans about Wade...hell try convincing them that Bosh and Love aren't absolute bums. WHo said anything about no team being better than the Bulls? This is about the arguement that MJ's EC was just as easy as LeBron's which is obviously and factually complete horseshit. Just look at the double amount of 50+ opponents MJ beat in less time than LeBron has. But, i'll entertain you. So Starks is a bum? He can get you 18-20 and 5apg and he had fire and passion, but he's a bum? It's not about if he's the 2nd best, its the fact that the rest of the starters were just as good as starks. Depth. Tons of very good role players and a really bully defense with Pat Riley as coach. Looking at the Pacers and saying that Miller can't be the best player on a stacked team is stupid. Mark Jackson was a ROY and former All Star pure pg, Dale Davis was double double machine and a former all star, Anotnio Davis? All-Star. Rik Smits? Probably the most underrated Center of the 90s. All Star. Chris Mullin? HOFer. Derrick McKey? 2x All defensive team and a guy that could have easily been a 20-25 career scorer had he taken more shots. Jalen Rose? Another big scorer. Travis Best? A good career backup PG. Hoiberg 3pt specialist. Croshere and Mark West both very serviceable role players. Both the Knicks and Pacers had household names from top to bottom. Like i said. Stacked. But all you want to do is base the teams strength on the #2 player or #1 player? This wasn't the 2010's where everyone joined up. Despite only 3 teams winning in the 90s, there was great parity and that was my point. I never said there were Eastern teams with more talent than the Bulls. Despite whatever you believe, Ewing=HOF, Miller=HOF, Mourning= HOF(Tim Hardaway might eventually get in), Shaq=HOF(Penny would be if he stayed healthy along with GHill+Joe Dumars), Dikembe=HOF. All in the EAST in their primes when Jordan was winning. That's not even counting the teams in the East during MJ's younger years. Again. Those Bulls were off 6 straight ECF and 3 straight titles. Chemistry and Pippen playing his best season of his career and a 55 win team isn't hard to realize, but not sustainable. They fell back to earth the next season without MJ(and Grant) and mostly hovered around .500. James Harden led our bum Rockets with Dwight hurt 2 years ago to the #2 seed and they made the WCF. He again led a bunch of shooters this year to same wins as Pippen and company. Doesn't mean anyone ever really took the Pippen Bulls or Harden Rockets seriously. Hell, a lot of teams underachieved in 94. Karl Malone and Stockton only manged 53 wins.Admiral only 55. Barkley only 56. Ewing only 57. Shaq and Penny only 50 wins. Clyde only 47. Strange year that 94 year. Pippen and Grant + good role players and system is good for an overachieving season of 55 wins. Grant and BJ actually made the All Star game that year. Horace deserved it, but i still have no idea how BJ made it. I suppose you're one of those that uses 94 Bulls as an example to say LeBron is more valuable to his teams because 6 straight ECF and 3 peat champs minus their best player is the same thing as the non contender/non champion Cavs tanking after losing LeBron or the Heat coming off a depressing beatdown in the Finals minus LeBron with loads of injuries and missing the playoffs by a single game is solid proof and perfectly fair comparison.
