Harden slowest in NBA in...

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by OTMax, Nov 13, 2017 at 9:12 AM.

  1. Pen15clubber

    Pen15clubber Member

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    When "capela my fella" is the most well thought out thread in the top 10 then you know we got issues
     
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  2. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    I'm great. Rockets are best in the west even without CP3

    Despite harden being slow and Draymond Green on defense LOL

    you okay?
     
  3. JaceMan da SpaceMan

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    Yes I'm ok to thanks u.
     
  4. bongman

    bongman Member

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    Compared to what? It's easy for us to criticize someone's effort when we have no idea what it physically takes to do what they do in addition to what we expect them to do. Is it fair?
     
  5. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    It’s absolutely fair to acknowledge both the good and bad. Only focusing on one and ignoring the other is what I’d consider not fair.

    Harden is arguably the best offensive player in the league. But it comes at a cost (low defensive effort on average).
     
  6. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    I guess you're right if you consider Lebron, WB, PG, & other superstars performance last year as low defensive effort as well
     
  7. bongman

    bongman Member

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    That I agree with - cost. What I am not convinced of is this claim about lack of effort. It's a marathon so for me, he is allowed a few lazy defensive plays every now and then.
     
  8. RocketsTruth

    RocketsTruth Member

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  9. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    like everyone does.. last year, harden couldn't have physically exerted any "more defensive effort" or its gonna cause decrease on offense and wins considering the coaching, system, and players around him

    we won "only" 55 games last year not because harden's "lack of defensive effort"...
     
  10. Swapshop

    Swapshop Member

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    Corry brewer Rocket legend.
     
  11. Dr of Dunk

    Dr of Dunk Clutch Crew

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    I'll admit I haven't read the entire thread, but what is the criteria for this? How far apart are the 79 who made the criteria? I can't stand when some number is just thrown out there with nothing stating the reasoning or method behind it.

    I'm also curious because a study was done last year in which the methodology and the reasoning behind it was detailed by Chris Herring @ FiveThirtyEight.com. Harden and Ariza are specifically noted as having among the worst "lag rates" in the NBA, but they reasoned for completely different reasons. The worst rates in the league at the time according to the criteria they chose were : Draymond Green (worst), Russell Westbrook, LeBron James, John Wall, James Harden, Trevor Ariza, DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry, Kyrie Irving, and Bradley Beal.

    Before we jump on pro/anti-Harden camp, consider even this methodology has issues, but I found his reasoning and the fact he watched to see "why" these guys lagged behind on D in these cases more interesting (lol at Westbrook's triple-dub laziness, doe).

    Here's the article, and make of it what you will :
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-nba-players-who-are-too-busy-complaining-to-get-back-on-d/
     
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  12. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    Things I noticed. But irregardless, if a team is 11-3 with their superstar leading at most stats and adv metrics across the board how is this relevant?

    or is 538 simply saying only superstars get back slow on defense and the more often you do it the more likely you'll win the championship?

    WB is excused for carrying OKC but Harden who isn't afforded the same excuse

    Wall for being fouled/hacked/bumped but Harden isn't afforded the same excuse as well

    "Every now and then, Westbrook seems to fall this far behind as a way to catch a quick breather — understandable given how much he’s asked to do for OKC’s offense"

    "When Wall is bumped in the air while moving at a high speed, he goes flying"
     
  13. Dr of Dunk

    Dr of Dunk Clutch Crew

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    That's akin to saying "if a team is 11-3", why do any stats matter -- they're winning. Okay. I'd like to think it's because we're in an era of trying to use many advanced stats to determine the "why" because no one stat determines it. It's why stats like points per game, assists per game, etc. by themselves aren't enough to define how good or bad a player is or why they are.

    BTW, I can't argue or disprove what the guy says since I haven't watched every video he references, but notice all he says is that after watching the instances, that "His displeasure with the calls is generally what’s slowing him down." Sounds reasonable, to me. It's not like he's taking some anti-Harden stance. He's just saying from what he can see, the times Harden lags, generally it's because he stays back to argue with the refs. And to be honest, last year, can you blame Harden? Maybe if he bitches enough, he'll get a make-up call somewhere whereas he may not be able to stop a fastbreak from behind a la LeBron.
     
  14. j@amc

    j@amc Member

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    A few years ago, I railed against Harden, Dwight, and J-Smoove for lagging. That 2015-16 effort was pretty bad. That might have been one of slowest professional teams of all time. Guys down at the Y ran harder than that crew on a back-to-back.

    Harden's Average Speed Defensive
    2015-2016 3.48
    2016-2017 3.30
    2017-2018 3.38

    But what I'm seeing is more spring in Harden's game on the offensive end. When you look at the last ten games, his average offensive speed is 4.09, which is great for him. It still pretty painful that even the most average NBA athlete runs a 4.0 average, but I like Harden's effort this year--no complaints there.

    The 5:38 piece is looking at why various players are slow and traces it to their chatter with refs. That's a fair criticism that we need to move to the next play.

    We're only at the tip of iceberg of our scoring if we are in shape and run the court consistently. If we could push the ball up under control after made baskets, the sky would be the limit.
     
  15. Elephant810

    Elephant810 Member

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    Relative to some of his peers.....
     
  16. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    like who specifically?

    played and started 81 games, 7 more games than lebron james and kawhi, 9 games more than LMA (spurs 2nd most minutes played next to kawhi), 20 games more than CP3 (too see why CP3 wanted to join up with Harden)
    played a total of 2947 minutes, 150 minutes more than lebron, 500 more minutes than kawhi, 600+ more minutes more than LMA, 1000+ more minutes than CP3
    scored a total of 2356 points, 400 points more than lebron, 500 more minutes than Kawhi, 1,100 more points more than LMA, 1200+ more points than CP3
    dished a total of 907 assists, 250 more asts than lebron, 650 more asts than kawhi, 750 more asts than LMA, 300+ more than CP3
    made a total of 262 3 pointers, 100+ more than lebron and kawhi, 200+ more than LMA, 100+ more than CP3
    rebounded the ball 659 times, more than lebron, 200 more than Kawhi, 100 more than LMA, 350+ more than CP3

    same deflections per game as Westbrook and Rondo more than Lebron, Anthony Davis, Durant
    same loose balls recorvered per game as Lebron, Anthony Davis, Draymond Green more than Durant and Klay
    same charges drawn as Lebron, Anthony Davis more than Steph Curry, Butler, George double that of Durant, Kawhi, Westbrook, Klay
    more 2pt shots contested than Lebron, Kawhi, Curry, George, Westbrook, Butler
    more 3pt shots contested than Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Curry, Westbrook
    more overall shots contested than Lebron, Kawhi, Curry, Westbrook, Butler
    same defensive reb % as Lebron slight lower than Durant better than Kawhi, George, Butler, Klay, Curry
    and lastly, similar defensive rating as Lebron, Avery Bradley, Ariza, slight lower than George
     
  17. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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  18. BigMaloe

    BigMaloe Contributing Member

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    You realize that most of the time that is the right and smart play?

    You stop transition and allow your defense to set in the half court by doing so.
     
  19. Elephant810

    Elephant810 Member

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    OMG will you give it up lol
    OMG will you give it up. Again, I'm as big a Harden fan as any, but quit trying to act like he's perfect. Yes, he had to do everything himself and I can't imagine any other players than maybe Lebron who would have gotten 55 wins with our roster, but that doesn't mean we can't point out some of his flaws. Just because there exists some stats that show how harden did some positive things on the defensive end doesn't mean that at times his effort isn't lacking (I'm not expecting him to be an amazing defender, just show some effort, a la Steph Curry, who overall sucks as well but he'll put in the effort). Again, I'm talking about last season....(I definitely believe that hes showing more effort this season...)
     
  20. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    we get it now.. Curry is your savior

    if we traded Harden for Curry last year then GSW will still be champions and either he or KD will be finals MVP
    while Rockets won't get past the first round

    but that's not important to "rockets fans" like you because "showing effort" is what's important
     
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