Harden is still a top 5 nba player

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Mathrocker, May 11, 2017.

  1. joomba

    joomba Member

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    Spurs were 7-1 w/o Kahwi in the regular season, only because all of the teams they played were weak AF.

    Phoenix, Portland (without Lillard), Brooklyn, Toronto (without DeRozan), Memphis, Sacramento, GSW (without all their starting line-ups), and Dallas.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01/gamelog/2017

    Pop only took out Kahwi when his team was going against weak competition or teams without their best players. The only time Spurs got matched up against a legitimate, healthy playoff team was Memphis, and what do you know, they lost that game.
     
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  2. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Harden has the skill set to be a full-time pg on offense but he doesn't have the body the to be a effieicent full time pg. It's very obvious. Compared to other full time pgs it's very easy to trap Harden and it's very easy to stop his dribble relative to other full time pgs which hinders our offense.

    He needs to increase his foot speed and conditioning this off-season. A full off-season of shadowing Beverly and his conditioning routine will work wonders.
     
  3. marky :)

    marky :) Member

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    Maybe change the thread title to "Harden is still a top 5 nba TALENT". I'm a huge Harden supporter but last night was a huge embarrassment.

    Can't be considered a top 5 player in the league with that kind of effort.
     
  4. TEXNIFICENT

    TEXNIFICENT Member

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    James is great player but not an all time great because of the meltdowns in the playoffs. He gets in his own head too much. When in doubt, he'd be better off just resorting to what he does best which is scoring. He can't worry about turning the ball over because when you do, you will. Just go play man, it's just basketball. It's not bigger than that , just play. He's got to be better for the Rox to get where they want to go. Would trade him unless I've recieved an incredible deal but I wouldn't say he's a top 5 guy either.
     
  5. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    Missing out on free agent targets is irrelevant? Also, you can't look at free agent signings in hindsight. Gordon definitely outperformed Bazemore, but that doesn't change the fact that we originally wanted and missed out on Bazemore.

    It's not hard to figure out what was promised to Dwight. He had multiple suitors and made it known that he wanted a prominent offensive role. Do you honestly think that we were able to sign him without promising him a prominent offensive role?

    Dwight didn't fail. His offense didn't regress at all during his time here. The Rockets simply found a better option in Harden. Going away from Dwight was the correct basketball move, but in terms of player management, it was stupid.

    LOL. Who do you think signs those players and coaches.

    We were embarrassed in the playoffs, and we weren't the 3rd best regular season team. We simply had the 3rd best record. We didn't rest guys like Cleveland or have major injuries like Toronto, Utah, and the Clippers. Right now, we're a gimmick team built for the regular season. We're not nearly as good as you think we are.

    Fair point, but the Spurs were still able to sign another highly coveted FA in Pau Gasol. And the year before, they had signed LaMarcus Aldridge. So it's safe to say that players DO want to play with Leonard.
     
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  6. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Again, we are talking about all-star caliber players and you bring up Bazemore. I'm just pointing out that we signed two guys better than him.

    So, giving Dwight post touches he would fail at is good for player management? I wonder how the rest of the team would feel if the team decided they were forced to give Dwight his shots to appease him over team success. I imagine that not going over so well with the rest of the guys.

    Also, Dwight said many times that he'd do all it takes to help the team win, he often is lying about that. He won't take a lesser role for winning.

    LOL and who do you think players spend more time with? Coaches/Players or GMs?

    I've NEVER heard of a player not going someplace because of a GM or owner, never. Most players when asked about GMs seem quite impartial about them completely unless they are former players GMs.

    Look at the standings, we were the 3rd best regular season team. You bringing up teams we all are better than in Toronto, Utah, and the Clippers. We're not nearly as bad as you think we are. Now we worse than a team that lost in the 1st round? That's being way too harsh.

    I'm pretty sure they could have gotten away with playing Kawhi at the 2, it's not like he can't guard 2s or score against them had Durant went there. I'm not sure Pau Gasol was highly coveted at that age also.

    Anyways, the players aren't a monolith.You are treating them like one.

    They all don't think alike. Some guys are happy where they are, they like their city, they want their family to remain there.

    Some guys are just going to sign wherever they get the most money.

    Some guys want to win at all costs and will go run to the nearest superteam. Some guys just want to play with their friends and some guys want to go somewhere where they will have a different role. I mean, it's a million things affecting a players decisions here.

    Could you be right that Paul George wants nothing to do with the Rockets after tonight? Sure. You could be, but you don't know his opinion on Harden. He could also just want to go home to LA and play for the Lakers and it has nothing to do with Harden. Hell, he could tell Harden "I'll be in a Lakers uniform waiting for you bruh." and still choose the Lakers AND choose playing with Harden...or maybe Butler, maybe Butler likes the idea of playing closer to home (since he insists he's not from Houston...) and playing for the Rockets.

    I don't think there is much value in weighing what players will or won't do if they've said nothing about it. So until Hayward, George, Butler, et al say they don't want to play with Harden I'll still be talking about the possibility of them playing with us and I'm sure they all have different opinions on where they want to play and who they may like to play with.

    Hayward may be thinking it'd be fun to play in MDAs system and in a bigger market or he may equally be thinking that he loves Utah and never really consider anything else...or he may want to play for his old coach. Two of those things have nothing to do with Harden.
     
  7. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    Again, irrelevant. We wanted Bazemore and settled for Gordon. Sure, it worked out for us, but that doesn't change the fact that we missed out on our original target. Do you think that missing out on your original target is a blueprint for success?

    I'm bringing up lesser players b/c there wasn't much all-star movement this past offseason. It was only Durant, Horford, and Dwight. So it's stupid that you're framing your argument as "I know Horford and Durant didn't want to play in Houston, but what other all-star caliber players didn't!?!?!"

    I think that good management makes promises and tries to keep them.

    In regards to giving Dwight his promised shots, the rest of the team probably feels the same way about having to cover for Harden's atrocious defense.

    I think players know who their boss is.

    That's because players aren't stupid enough to burn bridges.

    We had the 3rd best record, and that was because other teams had injuries or rested their players.

    We won 55 games. The Raptors won 51, and Lowry missed over 20 games due to injury. The Clippers won 51 games, and both Paul and Griffin missed 21 games. Utah won 51 games, and Hill missed over 30 games, Hood over 20 games, and Favors over 30 games.

    If those teams had better health, you don't think they could win an additional 5 games each? Seriously?

    And that would've forced Durant to play the 4 and Aldridge to play the 5 (something he didn't want to do).

    Also, look at the contract Gasol signed. $15.5mm this year and $16mm next year. That's not the contract of a guy who isn't highly coveted.

    Again, actions speak louder than words.
     
  8. Deuce

    Deuce Contributing Member

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    I'm right there with ya.

     
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  9. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Well, my argument is about all-star players and not Bazemore. I couldn't give a flip about what Bazemore does and who he decides to play for. I'm not exactly sure the Rockets had him higher on their list than Ryan Anderson either.

    Being a GM is all about missing out on your original targets and going to plan B, that's a really bad point to make.

    So, you just ignore Dwight constantly saying he'll do what it takes to help the team win...

    Yes, they know who their boss is but this isn't the same situation as working at an office. They move numbers for their boss and have a bit of power. They care a lot more about who they are playing with, where they are playing, and the coach they are playing for.

    And if Yao and Tmac were healthy they would have won a championship together. Who cares about injuries throughout the regular season? That does not invalidate the Rockets success like you are trying to do here.

    Using this logic you may as well take away GSWs first championship.

    Kawhi at the 2, Durant at the 3, LMA at the 4. Pau would have had to sign somewhere else and Spurs fill their roster.

    As for Gasol's contract, well thanks, I mean using that logic than Ryan Anderson was also highly coveted too and he came to play here. More coveted than Pau Gasol...

    Did they make their decisions already? You are making the mistake that these players ALL think like you do. They don't.
     
  10. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    And there were only 2 all-star players available (3 if you count Dwight). And we went after both and failed. So it's intellectually dishonest of you to say "ok, we missed out on Durant and Horford....BUT WHO ELSE?!?!"

    Bazemore wouldn't have been on the same list as Anderson. Logically, Anderson would've been plan B for Horford, and Gordon a plan B for Bazemore.

    Yes. Ignore what Dwight tells and look at what he actually gives you. Again, actions speak louder than words.

    And since the GM makes all those decisions, don't you think it's important to have a GM they trust?

    Because the Rockets really weren't the 3rd best team in the league like you keep claiming. They simply had the 3rd best record.

    Good luck with that.

    You don't think Ryan Anderson was a coveted free agent? There aren't too many good stretch 4's in the league.

    We'll see. I'll happily eat crow if we sign a legit all-star, but I don't see that happening.
     
  11. ricardo1979

    ricardo1979 Member

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    You have taken trolling to a new level. We know you are a YAO/LIN fan. All you do here is bash the rockets and harden
     
  12. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    And you've taken idiocy to a new level. Congrats on that.
     
  13. Surfguy

    Surfguy Contributing Member

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    Only Tony Romo understands James Harden and what he's going through.
     
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  14. oelman44

    oelman44 Member

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    Was reading a random article and had to bump this **** lol. Wasn't even looking and came across a pretty common sentiment among NBA junkies who form their opinions outside of ESPN circlejerks.

    'With Harden on the floor (and playing passable defense this season, even if his reputation won't allow some to recognize that), the Rockets have outscored opponents by 9.3 points per 100 possessions. Without him, they've produced a minus-0.5 net rating.'

    Harden isn't ever going to be a defensive juggernaut or close to that, but as long as he's average his offense far weighs out his defense. The Warriors are forced to take Steph out late game because he is too much of a defensive liability. Harden has the body and strength to play defense, and as long as he can give some effort and not be a defensive abomination I'm content.
     
  15. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    For me he never was a Top 5 player but a Top 2 or No.1 Offensive Player and No. 250 Defensive player with a horrible Turnover rate.

    I always say he is a Top 3 player just to please other fans and homers. It sounded better. He has the talent.

    And NOW he is a Top 5 quitter for sure.
     
  16. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    What is wrong with Yao though? Rockets legendary player and HOFer. No.1 Draft Pick.
     
  17. Mathrocker

    Mathrocker Member

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    As heretical as some rockets fabs might say...

    Harden is better than yao was. He has gotten further in the playoffs than yao, has 1st team all nba, and is baller as hell.

    He sucked in game 6. Lets not let that define him though. Yao never played in a game 6 of the 2nd round.

    Injuries arent fair. Yao is a badass. I have his jersey and think hes legendary. Harden is better
     
  18. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Ok. Harden is a better basketball player.

    Yao is the better human philantropist, I would say it evens itself out because I think Yao could be the better leader.

    Forget the could, he was the better leader by example.

    People are overrating the playoffs in this era.

    Playoffs in the end 80s and 90s were much more dramatic. Van Gundy on the floor, on a player's leg?

    Much more domination from elite post players.

    Playoffs these years have been more about who blows whom out. Shooting way beyond the arc.

    A lot less Double Overtime. Overtime in general.
     
    #218 daywalker02, May 14, 2017
    Last edited: May 14, 2017
  19. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    No. Let's totally do it!
     
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  20. HadToDoItCF

    HadToDoItCF Member

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    Good story on the analytics nonsense. It really takes in to account frontrunner mentality and the inability to show grit in comebacks or when you simply "don't have it."

    People who bet horses commonly site stats as well. The funny thing about those stats, is that if they don't include the score of the game, or the position of the stallion during the race, they don't mean a GD thing.

    Keep hawking nonsense that includes bottom feeder teams when the thing you actually want is a championship.
     
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