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Harden defense watch

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by OTMax, Nov 8, 2016.

  1. Harden's beard

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    If it dosen't mean anything, then the rank order should be all random. but look at who is leading each category. makes perfect sense to me.
     
  2. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    Well that means as a team we are very bad, which is backed up by a lot of stats. Bottom 5...
     
  3. Harden's beard

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    of course we are bad as a team, because we have 0 elite defenders on this team, even the better ones - Ariza, Capela and KJ - are above average at best. what did you expect from this roster really. blame it on Morey, 'cause I too want better defenders on this team.
     
  4. fryjol7

    fryjol7 Member

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    I´m not demanding clamp down defense, but I still believe he can improve.
     
  5. ThatboyPhuong

    ThatboyPhuong Member

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    There was one play on transition where john wall made a layup but Harden was being smart and not pick up his second foul in the first
     
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  6. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Not trying to be critical. I see people use this kind of stats a lot but they don't really say much. Defense is not a one-to-one kind of game. It has a lot of switching and helping, especially in this day and age of sophisticated defensive schemes. There is simply no good stat for individual defense, at least not publicly available.
     
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  7. rocketseagles07

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    Lol what games have you been watching? He still doesn't fight through screens and he's still lazy especially off the ball/help d wise. He's been amazing on offense and we'd probably have 0 wins w/o him but don't act like his d has been much better
     
  8. rocketsballin

    rocketsballin Member

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    the thumbnail is too funny "WHY DO I HAVE TO PLAY DEFENSE!?!?! >( "
     
  9. lionaire

    lionaire Member

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    He look ok
     
  10. Harden's beard

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    there is no one good stat for individual defense, but combining several stats gives you some clue as to how a given player is playing on that end of the floor and that's why I posted several stats. I probably have used DRPM too if that was available (not yet.) I mean pretty much all meaningful defensive metrics points to the fact that Kawhi is a defensive monster and Lillard is a defensive sieve, there is definitely some consistency there. Lastly, people criticizing Harden's defense usually have nothing but their 'eye-test' result, which should be regarded as a non-argument really.
     
  11. Harden's beard

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    Every single game of this season, and compared to last season? yes, his D is much much better
     
  12. ricardo1979

    ricardo1979 Member

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    Actually DD is spot on. Harden is making more effort on defense. He is fighting through screens and is getting back a lot more on trans defense. Hell he gets beat a lot less on backdoor cuts as well.
     
  13. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Why is eye test a non-argument?
    Why is eye test a non-argument? Knowledgeable eye test actually allows you to point out which defender(s) are responsible for an opponent's score.

    It's like using the number of sacks to judge an individual offensive lineman's worth. It sounds reasonable but it's not how an offensive line works in football.

    BTW, Curry had the fifth best DRPM among PGs last season. Yet, Harden fans keep saying Curry got away with being a bad defender but Harden got all the flaks (which I do not disagree). Funny how defensive stats work. All plus-minus stats have the major flaw of measuring the difference between the player and his replacement rather than the player's own worth, not to mention the noise that is caused by the variation of opposing lineups they face against.

    Team defense is very easy to quantify. Individual defense, especially perimeter defense, is extremely difficult. But you can look at each defensive play and point out what went wrong such as who missed a rotation, who allowed a blow by, who got caught in a PnR that resulted in an easy alley-oop, etc.
     
  14. rocketsballin

    rocketsballin Member

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    just watch highlights of the wizards game and see how much his defense has..ahem.."improved"

    btw very first play brewer played good d. weird
     
  15. Harden's beard

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    Because every people see things differently due to whatever preconceptions and bias they have. Even here, there are groups of people who argue that Harden's D has improved this season, and then there's the opposing camp saying they see no difference. So who's actually right? The only way to settle this issue is by looking at the data and facts, not by "I saw Harden do this in a game."

    How many defensive lapses does Harden typically commit in a single game, and in contrast how many good defensive possessions does he have? Do you really know? Have you done any calculations? and have you compared that ratio to other players on our team and in NBA in general? What about compared to last year? Where does Harden rank defensively in terms of percentile? We know he's not a good defender, but how bad is he really? is he C? C-? D+? D-? F?

    Just watching his game does not provide any specific answer to these kinds of questions, and every individual person will come to wildly different conclusions. You are just 'assuming' that every other people will see things the way you're seeing, and I'm saying that's not the case.

    What did I just say in my last post? I said there is no one good stat for defense, but if you combine them altogether and a pattern emerges from there, then that could indicate something is going on as opposed to just random noise. It's called the meta-analysis, look it up. So what if DRPM does not reflect Curry's defense accurately, it also says Kawhi is a good defender, so am I right now? A single example does not prove nor negate any given stat's validity. It could very well be 75% correct and 25% incorrect. Is that totally useless? I don't think so.
     
    #55 Harden's beard, Nov 9, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2016
  16. Harden's beard

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    You are being very deceitful there because a highlight only shows clips of players making shots, not missing them. I watched the full game, and Harden did a decent job on Beal from the 2Q.
     
  17. rocketsballin

    rocketsballin Member

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    there's some defensive lapses in there. if he doesnt take this more serious soon i fear we may see a defensive juggernaught part 2
     
  18. Harden's beard

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    because we know other players never make defensive lapses...like ever? this is why I consider 'eye-test' a non-argument. It's just too subjective and can't make any meaningful comparisons with other players.

    next time you watch Curry, Westbrook, Lillard, DeRozan or Kyrie's game (all sub-par defenders), just solely focus on their defensive performance in detail, and nitpick every part of it just like you're doing it to Harden now. You'll be pleasantly surprised to know that other players also make defensive mistakes, multiple times in a single game.
     
  19. fryjol7

    fryjol7 Member

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    He is improving, he still forces us to switch too much, altough with Washingon I saw he recognizes quickly which mismatches he loses. He still can improve on the timing, not every moment is a good moment to switch.

    I think his weakest spot on the court is the corners, when his man is there he goes back to ball watching. And the screens where he has to follow his man all the way to the corners are also an area where he can vastly improve.
     
  20. fryjol7

    fryjol7 Member

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    I agree, but that is no excuse to us as Fans. I appreciate Harden as anyone, hell, right now my adult like takes a hit with the way he is playing, he is must watch TV.

    I still believe he can improve on the timing, his mistakes come in times where a stop is crucial, o where we are building a run. I understand the logic behind allowing him to rest on defense, but we have to have a system backing up that strategy, not random rests.
     

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