You know that feeling when you go to the mall and you see some teenage rugrats wearing a GunsNRoses or Metallica tour shirt from the 80s This is the same thing
I'd maybe consider Michael Jordan above Hakeem but not Lebron. Even MJ, I'd argue how much was him and how much was marketing and him sensationalized. Lebron with all the gaudy stats couldnt do it without having to have 2 other all-stars at their peak and even then they couldn't beat a team with one Dirk Nowitzki.
Conversations like this are always difficult because it is just about impossible to compare one era to a different one. The game has changed so much just in the past 5-10 years much less the past 50-60. Which makes it so hard to compare different players from different eras. So when it comes down to discussions like this everyone has a different opinion and a lot of it just speculation. I've said it on here before, but for me Hakeem is far and away my favorite athlete of all time but if I had to choose the best individual player of all time I would have to choose Wilt. The dude is just ridiculous. He holds 68 individual NBA records. Check out some of these stats: -He once averaged (averaged) 50 points a game in a season. He has the top 4 spots for most points scored per game during a season. He also once averaged 25 rebounds in a season. -Everyone knows about the game when he scored 100 points in a game, but what about a single game where he had 55 rebounds -For his career he averaged almost 23 rebounds a game. -In one regular season, he scored over 50 points 45 times. He also had another season where he scored over 50 points 30 times. If you include playoffs, MJ had 39 games over 50 points and Kobe had 26. No other player has ever had over 20 in their careers. -He has the record with most 60+ point games. He had 32. Kobe is second with 6. Wilt is also the only player to ever have back to back 60+ point games. -For his career, he averaged 45.8 minutes per game. One season he played every single minute that his team played. Because a couple of games went into overtime, that season he actually averaged 48.52 minutes per game (which, of course, is more than the 48 minutes that are in an NBA game) -Early in his career people were saying Wilt was a one dimensional player that could only score. So the next season he led the league in assists, the only Center to ever do that. I could keep going. He is just ridiculous. The numbers are laughable. People always have 2 complaints against him. 1) He didn't win enough championships. I don't put much weight in that if we are talking about the best individual player. 2) The competition was worse and the pace of the game was different which caused the inflated stats. To this one I always say- if that is the case, why didn't anyone else do it? No one else even came close. If the competition was so weak and the pace caused such inflated numbers, why didn't Walt Bellamy and George Mikan and Elgin Baylor and Jerry West and even Bill Russell have numbers that were close to being that ridiculous. No one even came close. Shoot, if you look at the head to head matchup of Wilt vs Russell (who many people think is one of the greatest defensive players ever)- they played 142 times against each other. In those games Wilt averaged 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds. And those numbers are actually brought down because of the games later in Wilt's career. I know it's just my opinion and so much of it is speculation, but for me my money would be on Wilt.
That's not complaint about Wilt. You can ignore competition/strength of the league and just compare him to the league average at the time and you'll realize his impact on the court was barely worthy of a top 10 all-time player. Basketball is a team game and the way Wilt played for most of his career didn't give his team the best chance to win. Averaging 50 points per game is cool, but doesn't mean much when your team is mediocre/bad on offense because of it. Wilt's best season was '67 when he finally bought into the team concept and played some of his best defense. He averaged only 24 ppg(but shooting 68% from the field and averaging almost 8 assists), and anchored the best offensive team in the league for the first time in his career - before that in his first 7 seasons his teams were above league average offensively just once. That tells you how cancerous his style of play was while he was averaging 50 points since there is players in NBA history that managed to anchor elite offenses with less talented teammates. Defensively Wilt was not amazing either. He had some great defensive years('64 mainly), but he doesn't really compare to what the best defenders in NBA history were able to do on a regular basis even in that season. The best comparsion is probably Shaq and honestly Shaq was probably better defender than Wilt. They both had similar flaws(poor transition defense, terrible pick and roll defense, lack of quickness to defend perimeter) but Wilt was also too focused on his individual stats and quit playing defense to not foul out. On the topic, is Hakeem top 5 of all time? He isn't. There is no argument for him over Jordan, Kareem, Russell or Duncan and after that I'd give an edge to LeBron and Shaq for 5th and 6th spot. He has a good argument for 7th spot, but there is couple players that could claim the same thing.
Hakeem was a center, who mixed in some nifty 1-on-1 face up moves from 15-20 feet away from the basket on occasion and had a decent midrange jumper from 18 feet and in. I wouldn't call him a stretch four at all.
How do you figure? He didn't shoot 3's - so no stretch there, and was primarily a post player. What aspect of how he was used or fit into an offense made him a 4?????
Hakeem is tricky to evaluate because his peak was kinda short but his performance during his peak was absolutely one of the best of all time. But then, you also have to take into account that Hakeem just could not get out of the 1st round in the playoffs for significant portions of his career. Also, Hakeem during the regular season kinda lagged behind Shaq and even David Robinson (who was an abysmal playoff performer, btw) Overall, I wouldn't say Hakeem is a top 5 player of all time. Top 10 is arguable.
Lebron is top 5 for sure. I mean the dude could be greatest athlete ever... EDIT: for fun (no order): MJ Wilt Lebron Hakeem ????? Kobe/bird/magic/russell
Hakeem was the best "two way" player to ever play the game of basketball. When Jordan was asked to choose one teammate to play along side of him on his ultimate fantasy team he picked Hakeem. When Jordan was asked which player he feared the most he mentioned Hakeem and the entire 80's Pistons team. Hakeem had the footwork of a guard and played the game like a giant among men. He was a master shot blocker but he also changed the way opposing teams took shots before the game was even played. He was JJ Watt and Tom Brady rolled into one player to put it in football reference. Hakeem dominated in the era where big men were at their best. He had to go against the likes of D-Rob, Kareem, Ewing, Shaq, Vlade, Schmits, Sabonis, Mourning, Mutombo, Eaton, etc. Yet, in this era he thrived and stood among the top of all of them. We will likely never see a player as great as Hakeem for a very long time. The Bucks have this Giannis kid who does remind me of him sometimes though but he isn't a true center.
He is the G O A T....... for ME. Jordan didn't have me literally praying to god during timeouts and the OJ Chase. Jordan didn't motivate me to wake up at 7 am on Saturday's so I could be the first one out on the street to practice for that days games. Jordan didn't make me a witness to David v Goliath (Dream v Shaq) where once again, David won. Jordan didn't motivate me to average 50/20/10/10 on Tecmo NBA Basketball with his character so I could have him lead the league in everything, ever. Jordan didn't have me honking my parents horn for 5 minutes after Game 7 in 1994.....as the car stood perfectly damn still in the driveway and I looked and laughed with all my friends and neighbors doing the same. Jordan didn't have me lurking on CF for 15 years b4 finally embracing a handle paying homage to him. Jordan could wipe my ass though - 1) If I wiped, 2) If his picture was on some charmin. And he can put that nasty ass toungue back in his mouth too, or he could let it hang a little lower so it rests right on top of the media's head....b/c, you know, they are nestled softly around his testicular region. Much as they have for the last 30 years. I want MadMax vs MJ at UFC 215. I swear I would pay $250 to buy it. You're tellin me they couldn't get another few million globally to do the same and promise MJ a 200mm payday? You kidding me? MJ would sell his soul for $. He was as politically correct of an mf'er as you can be so as to not tarnish his brand or jeopardize sponsor dollars. Acted hard as bricks on the court, and filled-in for the Pillsbury doughboy off it as he cowered from taking a stand despite all the world as his stage. Layup. Hell, carve out 10mm for Max for proper motivation - though I reckon he'd do it for free. Quit getting me fired up CF, it's my weekend and but topic is my Shhhh! Oh, I know all of that was subjective so in deference to my objective and statistically oriented nature: Times either of these guys got their pops killed: Dream - 0 MJ - 1 Ok, maybe MJ has him in that category. Slim margin tho. (lighten up, it ain't too soon breh, hell they been joking bout the towers for about a decade now)
And another damn thing. The reason I'm a voracious LBJ surrogate in the LBJ/MJ debate is b/c by definition MJ being the GOAT implies he dominated/owned his era. The era of the Dream. I'll concede that the day you read my obituary. Real. Talk. Yeah, that's right. I've adopted LBJ's candidacy for GOAT not b/c LBJ is the GOAT, but b/c sometimes the smallest distance b/n two points isn't a straight line and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
I don't really agree he had a short peak. Basically from 84-97 he played at an elite level, with perhaps 88-95 being his regular peak and then having a super peak from 93-95.
As someone who had the pleasure of watching both Dream and Duncan in their prime (live sometimes) I respectfully disagree with this. Duncan had a lot of help. Ginobli had a period of being a dynamic player and Parker had a ridiculous first step for a while. Also, those championship teams played some of the most disciplined defense I've ever seen from a playoff team. While a large portion of that can be attributed to Duncan, Dream had to face better one on one competition. And he still leads in blocks over these guys. 2. Mutumbo 3. Kareem 4. Mark Eaton 5. Duncan 6. A guy Dream embarrassed 7. A guy Dream embarrassed 8. A guy Dream embarrassed 9. Tree Rollins 10. Old Man Parish And there isn't even another 5 in the top steals category even close. I think Garnett(17th) would play 5 on special occasions. Good for him. Dream didn't have that luxury. And Shaq...well, there are quotes from Shaq out there...Shaq also benefited from Penny/Kobe and the fact that the league had never seen a physical specimen like that before. The game changed after that. Objectively, Olajuwon was a better defensive big than either Shaq or Duncan. All 3 of them had to carry the brunt of scoring and won rings. I don't think I'm looking through red and gold colored glasses when it comes to Dream. I agree with putting Jordan and Lebron ahead of him (I don't know enough about Kareem, Wilt played with midgets) but when you factor his stats w/ competition, lack of a second star to reduce pressure to score, coaching changes, dominance, etc. he's unquestionably top 5. People like to talk about Kenny, Max, Bob, and Clyde and I love those guys but there is a reason they had the opportunity to hit those shots. Dream was unguardable during the best big man era the game has ever seen.
Depends on how you measure the peak. Ever since the twin tower duo with Ralph Sampson broke up in the mid 80s, Hakeem didn't have that much team success until he was 31 years old. During the entire span of 18 years of his career, Hakeem was ousted in the 1st round of the playoffs 8 times, and in the 2nd round 3 times. On top of that, Hakeem failed to make the playoffs 3 times. That's a lot of misses for an allegedly GOAT status player. Out of all 18 years, Hakeem had two rings, plus 1 Finals and 1 WCF appearances. That's not bad, but certainly doesn't come close to GOAT tier. Not many Houston fans remember this, but there was a time when Hakeem was accused of being a blackhole on offense and behaving selfish. He eventually wised up and became much better player, but only 1 Finals appearance with no MVP until age 30 is pretty bad no matter how you slice it. If Harden wins MVP this year, objectively Harden would achieve more than Hakeem ever did when he was the same age. You can make an argument that Hakeem is top 5 based on pure individual talent alone. But if we do that, a lot of other players we usually don't consider to be top 5, top 10, or top 20 due to relative lack of team success have to be reconsidered, and probably Bill Russell shouldn't even be included in top 50.
No you idiot. 4 Times 86 they went to the Finals, that means WCF and 97 when they lost to Utah in WCF Go back to the mall. Code: Season Lg Team W L W/L% Finish SRS Pace Rel_Pace ORtg Rel_ORtg DRtg Rel_DRtg Playoffs Coaches Top WS 2000-01 NBA Houston Rockets 45 37 .549 5 2.71 90.4 -0.9 106.7 3.7 104.2 1.2 R. Tomjanovich (45-37) S. Francis(12.2) 1999-00 NBA Houston Rockets 34 48 .415 6 -0.57 94.2 1.1 104.8 0.7 105.7 1.6 R. Tomjanovich (34-48) S. Francis(6.4) 1998-99 NBA Houston Rocketså* 31 19 .620 3 1.39 88.8 -0.1 105.4 3.2 102.9 0.7 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. R. Tomjanovich (31-19) C. Barkley(6.8) 1997-98 NBA Houston Rockets* 41 41 .500 4 -1.23 91.0 0.7 107.7 2.7 108.6 3.6 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. R. Tomjanovich (41-41) C. Barkley(8.6) 1996-97 NBA Houston Rockets* 57 25 .695 2 3.85 91.6 1.5 108.8 2.1 104.0 -2.7 Lost W. Conf. Finals R. Tomjanovich (57-25) C. Barkley(9.4) 1995-96 NBA Houston Rockets* 48 34 .585 3 1.63 93.2 1.4 109.3 1.7 107.4 -0.2 Lost W. Conf. Semis R. Tomjanovich (48-34) H. Olajuwon(9.7) 1994-95 NBA Houston Rockets* 47 35 .573 3 2.32 94.2 1.3 109.7 1.4 107.4 -0.9 Won Finals R. Tomjanovich (47-35) H. Olajuwon(10.7) 1993-94 NBA Houston Rockets* 58 24 .707 1 4.19 95.0 -0.1 105.9 -0.4 101.4 -4.9 Won Finals R. Tomjanovich (58-24) H. Olajuwon(14.3) 1992-93 NBA Houston Rockets* 55 27 .671 1 3.57 94.4 -2.4 109.6 1.6 105.2 -2.8 Lost W. Conf. Semis R. Tomjanovich (55-27) H. Olajuwon(15.8) 1991-92 NBA Houston Rockets 42 40 .512 3 -1.94 95.1 -1.5 106.2 -2.0 108.0 -0.2 D. Chaney (26-26) R. Tomjanovich (16-14) H. Olajuwon(9.8) 1990-91 NBA Houston Rockets* 52 30 .634 3 3.27 98.5 0.7 107.4 -0.5 103.9 -4.0 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. D. Chaney (52-30) O. Thorpe(10.4) 1989-90 NBA Houston Rockets* 41 41 .500 5 1.71 101.2 2.9 104.8 -3.3 103.4 -4.7 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. D. Chaney (41-41) H. Olajuwon(11.2) 1988-89 NBA Houston Rockets* 45 37 .549 2 0.22 101.8 1.2 105.7 -2.1 104.8 -3.0 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. D. Chaney (45-37) H. Olajuwon(12.4) 1987-88 NBA Houston Rockets* 46 36 .561 4 0.82 101.8 2.2 107.1 -0.9 105.7 -2.3 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. B. Fitch (46-36) H. Olajuwon(10.7) 1986-87 NBA Houston Rockets* 42 40 .512 3 0.60 99.9 -0.9 106.5 -1.8 105.5 -2.8 Lost W. Conf. Semis B. Fitch (42-40) H. Olajuwon(10.9) 1985-86 NBA Houston Rockets* 51 31 .622 1 2.10 103.5 1.4 110.1 2.9 107.6 0.4 Lost Finals B. Fitch (51-31) H. Olajuwon(9.5) 1984-85 NBA Houston Rockets* 48 34 .585 2 1.38 102.2 0.1 107.9 0.0 106.3 -1.6 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. B. Fitch (48-34) H. Olajuwon(10.2) Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table Generated 3/25/2017.
